Polemics - Discernment - The Christian Circus

We've got what we've titled the Christian Circus here, and this is looking at televangelists. There are actually enough televangelists out there, either in the present or in the recent past, that the list is actually long, and so we're not going to talk about all of them, but more as a sampling of a few of them. When you say televangelists, are they all really evangelists?

Some of them not, because in fact a lot of them are promoting themselves, they're promoting their healing or miraculous phenomenon, things of that sort. So there's a range. And let's ask another question. Is everybody who is a televangelist or on the media, radio or television, is everybody kooky? There are actually some that are fairly decent in what they teach, and they actually teach there.

So there is quite a range, and so we're not wanting to paint everybody with the same brush, but just a recognition that there's a lot out there that's suspect, and people have good reason to be suspect. There's a sucker born every minute, is a quote you may have heard before.

It's often attributed to P.T. Barnum, but it's actually, while it's variously attributed, other people have come up with some other ideas. David Hannum, he invested $37,500, this is well over a century ago, in a fake statue. It was supposedly some other archaeological or historical relic, and found out it was fake. But he charged money to have people come look at it, and P.T. Barnum made a fake of the fake.

And that's when he supposedly said this. You know, there's a sucker born every minute. One of the things that happens with a lot of these televangelists, they're obviously in it for the money. And one of the examples, Benny Hinn, ever heard of Benny Hinn? He's actually an Israeli guy and his name is more complicated than Benny. I'm not sure I'll try to pronounce it. But anyway, Benny Hinn has a net worth of about $42 million.

His ministry owns a private jet that ferries him around to different places. Joyce Meyer has a net worth of about $25 million. Her ministry also owns a private jet. And then her husband and four grown children all have benefited financially from her ministry. She's bought all of her adult children, you know, very nice homes. But they're all listed as under the ministry so there's no taxes on the income and not even property taxes paid on these very nice homes. So anyway, yeah, there's a lot to suspect. Joel Osteen has a net worth of about $40 million and recently bought a $10.5 million home.

So that's just a sampling. If a person wants to make a lot of money, this is one way to do it without really doing anything. So you've got to come up with some kind of a scheme. and theme, and make a lot of money, but we're going to check it out. One of the passages, you cannot serve God in wealth, and to me this is, you know, something's wrong here. I doubt that they're serving God, because boy are they in it for the wealth. It's quite apparent.

So compare these to what the Word of God says, and we've got this Matthew 6.24 passage here, but we've got some others here. We've got Luke 12, and it says 15 and 16, I think it's probably just 15. And then He said to them, Beware and be on your guard against every form of greed, for not even when one has abundance does his life consist of his possessions. So I think in many cases what's happening is these people really have another God, that they worship, and that's money.

And they just have figured a trick to accumulate it tax-free, to spread it out amongst, in some cases, family members, extended family members, and to even avoid property taxes. The county assessor where Joyce Meyer lives is very upset. Because it's her home and also other, you know, relatives' homes, all tax-free. And, you know, because they're owned by this ministry. So, anyway.

Then 2 Corinthians 2.17, For we are not like many, peddling the word of God. Okay? But as from sincerity, as from God, we speak in Christ in the sight of God. So what's the difference between Paul and these televangelist ministries?

There was no TV. There was no TV, yes. That was one thing, right? You didn't have umpteen different satellite and cable channels and everything else to work with. Yeah, no TV. But still, this peddling thing, they had those back then. People who would charge a fee. It's even a problem with Christian counseling, charging a fee for counseling. Because essentially the counseling is you should be delivering the word of God and charging a fee for it turns into peddling. Yes?

Did Paul say something to the effect when the disciples came to him and they said that somebody wasn't appropriately giving the gospel? And then Paul said something to the effect that so long as they're preaching Christ... What happens, however, is a lot of times these people aren't really even preaching Christ. Because in great part what these televangelists that are making lots of money are doing, they're selling their brand.

It's selling their brand, it's modern marketing techniques applied to their religious expression. both federally, and if the state has an income tax, state income tax-free, and then plus the local government also gets shafted. So these people get really large estates and sums of money, and everybody else pays for it. Yeah?

The stance referencing Philippians 1, 12 through 18, I don't know where he's asking about that, but the thing that I think is funny is in that case of Philippians, Paul's being in jail made some people angry thinking that was a spiritually sound place to be.

And so they were angry and they were preaching the gospel, but it was still the gospel. As you pointed out, these people are probably not preaching the gospel. The closest parallel actually for us would be we were really ticked that these people would call themselves evangelists. So we'd go out and preach the gospel more and more. Yeah, and it's like, you know, you'll have people who are skeptics, and that's all they are. And they're exposing these guys. But the problem is that it at least pretends to be Christianity. It pretends to present the gospel. And that's a shame. Because in many cases, they're not even presenting the gospel.

1 Timothy 3, 1, 3, and 8, an overseer then must be free from the love of money. That's having an affectionate attachment to silver. This is the original language there. Deacons likewise must be men of dignity, not fond of sordid gain. So those are official offices in the church, and it's saying that the love of money and pursuing things for gain is not a good thing.

Hebrews 13.5, make sure that your character is free from the love of money. This is again the affectionate attachment to silver. Being content with what you have for he himself has said, I will never, and this is the ume actually, twice, I will never, not even remotely possible, desert you, nor is it even remotely possible that I will ever forsake you.

So our security is in the Lord, not in accumulating large bank accounts. 1 Peter 5, 1 and 2, I therefore exhort the elders among you as your fellow elder and witness of the sufferings of Christ. Partake also of the glory that is to be revealed. Shepherd the flock of God among you. And then, dot, dot, dot, not forsorted gain.

Same exhortation as 1 Timothy 3.8. Anyway, these are referenced in case you want to check that out. I want to make sure I said references and not rumors. The next one is the false gospel and false teaching. This is on the top of page two.

In 2009, when Larry King asked Joel Osteen whether people of other faiths who don't believe in Christ would go to heaven, Osteen replied, you know, I'm very careful about saying who would and who wouldn't go to heaven. I don't know. Well, I don't know if I believe they're wrong. Or more directly, Larry King again, who is by the way Jewish, at least ethnically, asked Osteen if he believed all of their faiths were going to hell, such as Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, etc. Osteen remarked that he went with his father one time to India and met some fine people and said that no, he did not believe they were going to hell if they were sincere in their hearts. Are you going to be saved if you are sincere in your heart? Not so much, right? Not going to work. So sincerity isn't going to cut it.

John 8, 21-24, Jesus is talking to some very sincere Jewish leaders. And then he said again to them, the leaders of the Jews, I go away and you will seek me and will die in your sin. Where I'm going you cannot come. So the Jews were saying, surely he will not kill himself, will he, since he says where I'm going you cannot come? But he was saying to them, you are from below, I am from above. You are of this world, I am not of this world.

Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins. That's a positional statement, right? Die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am, this is ego, a me, you will die in your sins. Unless you believe that I am who I claim to be, which includes deity, You will die in your sins.

John 14, 6, Jesus said to him, I am, and this is another ego, a me statement, the way, the truth, and the life, no one comes to the Father but through me. So it's very clear in scripture that just being sincere and being of another faith isn't going to do it. But Joel Osteen doesn't get it. Matter of fact, I would even wonder if we're going to see him in heaven based on what he said here. I even wonder if we're going to see him in heaven. Yes?

It kind of beckons back to a few weeks ago, where everything is kind of looked at as a passive agreement, creativity, and a core doctrine. Right. And it's a problem with a lot of the modern Christian statements is that Things are not made clear when in fact Jesus was very clear. I'll expand on John 14, verse 6. He said, I, being in fact deity, because that's the I am statement, the singular way, the singular truth, and the singular life, no one comes to the Father except exclusively through me. Let's expand that and bring out the emphasis there. Joyce Meyer. Now, you'll find this very interesting, I think. Maybe a few other things, but interesting at least. He could have helped himself up to the point, and this is, who's he? Jesus, right?

To the point where he said, I commend my spirit into your hands. At that point, he couldn't do nothing, and I put S-I-C in there because that's the way she said it, for himself anymore. He had become sin. He was no longer the Son of God. He was sin. How does that sit with you? Did He cease being the Son of God while He was on the cross? No. He had to be the Son of God in order to do any good for us. Our sins were placed upon Him. It was not that he suddenly ceased being the Son of God and then became nothing but sin. Our sins were placed upon him, but it had to be on him as the Son of God.

That's the only way it works. So Vern, could you say technically then at that part that he became a sinner and God wasn't able to look upon him? He took our sins upon himself. And that's, I think, the best way to look at it, to understand it. But God couldn't look at him at that point. Right. And to think, to take our sins upon himself as the perfect son of God, God could not look upon... Well, God cannot look upon sin neutrally, but God does look upon sin. God does look upon sin. Yes.

So he didn't become sin, but he became the sacrifice for the sins? He took our sins upon himself. Was he a sinner? No. He was not by nature a sinner. Christ, the perfect son of God, took our sins upon himself. But that did not displace his sonship. At no time did he cease being who he was from eternity past on into eternity future. He was the Son of God and in fact he had to be the Son of God in order for his payment for sin to qualify.

The one other thing, how can he get it done in just a few hours where it takes somebody else for their own sins eternity? Right, it's because he has infinite capacity that he could take care of the whole sin problem for all mankind in a few hours, whereas for us, if we say, no, I'm not going to take that payment, I'm going to handle it myself, it's going to take you forever.

Basically you're talking about the fellowship relationship situation here, right? Yes, yes. And the becoming sin, that's what died too, that's what was separated. So I think that helps make it make sense a little bit when he said he became sin because that's what was destroyed.

Right, but that did not displace his position as the Son of God. Yes? He took it upon himself such that it was there to be paid for. He did not take it upon himself to change his identity. As I see it anyway, the shedding of the blood washed that away. Yeah. Washed him clean for us.

Let's take a look here at Matthew 27.54. Now the centurion and those who were with him keeping guard over Jesus when they saw the earthquake and the things that were happening became very frightened and said truly, so here's the centurion, truly this was the Son of God. So even the Roman centurion in charge of the execution recognized who this was.

Luke 22.70 And they all said, Are you the Son of God then?

And he said to them, Yes, I am. Ego emi. Yes, I am. Ego emi. Actually the centurion should have said, This is. Yeah, well, and he recognizes that this was meaning he's dead, right? In truth, that identity didn't change. John 8.58, I think, is another one that takes it out of the time context in terms of who Christ is. Jesus said to them, truly, truly, and by the way, John's the one that says truly, truly, right?

Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, not I was, but I am, Ego Emi. Before Abraham was born, Ego Emi. God, including Christ, the Son, dwells in the eternal present. Dwells in the eternal present. Yes? I'm sorry, I guess I'm just kind of coming out of trying to connect the two.

So did he become a symbol for sin? No, he took our sins directly upon us, but As he did so, it did not change his identity permanently. It was a temporary identification with the sin, whereas we are permanently identified. He was temporarily identified with our sins. That's what it means when it says becoming sin. Our identification with Christ in His death, burial, resurrection, ascension, and seeding was a permanent, eternally changing set of events. Whereas Christ was identified with, that's what it means by He became sin, He was identified with our sin while He was on the cross paying for them.

Okay, so John 8.58 is one where it takes it out of a time context. Christ has stepped into the time tunnel, but he's not stuck there like we are.

Colossians 1.15-17, he is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. And by the way, the firstborn can either mean the first one born, where it can speak to preeminence. That's what this is talking about. By the way, that was a question I had back in Uganda.

For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities, all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

So He did not cease being the Son of God, while on the cross paying for our sins. Or else what would happen? Yeah, everything would come apart. He is the One. In Him all things cohere and consist and are held together as matter. So what does it take for this present heavens and earth to become unglued? All that has to happen is Christ lets go. He cannot cease for a few hours on the cross to be the Son of God, or there's nothing. Right? Yes?

Stepping back a couple of statements ago, you were just explaining that His identity with sin is temporary, ours is permanent. Do you mean in that sense, ours is permanent until we're identified with Him? No. What I meant was, He was identified with the sin, but it did not change who He was. For us, our identification with Christ and His death, burial, resurrection, ascension, and seeing permanently changes who we are. His accomplishments on the cross continue, but it doesn't change His identity. It doesn't change who He is. So the minute that blood sacrifice was accepted, Jesus was the first human being that was ever born again.

That's a quote from Joyce Meyer. And out of that ring. Did Jesus need to be born again? No. So what's wrong with this? Is born again a good Christian term? Yes. Yeah, yeah, for us, okay? And so here's John 3, 3-7, Jesus answered, said to him, truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Do not be amazed that I said to you, you must be born again. Okay? Did Jesus say, we must be born again?

No. He pointed to Nicodemus. Why Nicodemus and not to himself? Why didn't he include himself in that statement? He didn't need to be born again. Nicodemus certainly did. As a descendant of Adam, Nicodemus needed to be born again. And it didn't matter what kind of rabbinical privileges or titles or anything else he had, he needed to be born again. He apparently doesn't understand the new creation. Yes. He's thinking of the old ones still.

Here's 1 Peter 1.3, blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which by the way, that's almost identical to the way, you know, Paul writes in 1 Corinthians, excuse me, Ephesians 1.3, who according to his great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. For you have been born again, not of seed, which is perishable, but imperishable, that is through the living and enduring word of God. that born again applies to us, it doesn't apply to Christ. He didn't need that. Now, here's another quote from Joyce Meyer.

He became our sacrifice and died on the cross. So far so good. He did not stay dead. He was in the grave three days. During that time he entered hell where you and I deserve to go legally because of our sin. He paid the price there. We've got some serious questions to ask here.

John 19.30, therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, he says, it is finished. This is tetelestai, which is in the perfect tense. So what does that mean? Tetelestai is an accounting term which means it's paid. And it's in the perfect tense, a completed past action, ongoing results from the present and on into the future, implying permanence, unless the context indicates otherwise.

Right? So, was it all paid? It was all paid before Jesus died, and was Jesus dying as a victim, or was something else going on? He voluntarily went on the cross, and he voluntarily died. not death as a victim. He gave up his spirit. So one thing, it's paid completely and permanently. He bowed his head and gave up his spirit, not just died as a victim. The next quote, his spirit went to hell because that is where we deserve to go. There is no hope of anyone going to heaven unless they believe this truth. Do you believe it? False gospel, right? False gospel. Because he said you have to believe something that basically we look at scripture and say it isn't true. We look here at Luke 23, 42 through 46.

And he was saying, Jesus, remember me when you come in your kingdom. And he said to him, truly I say to you, today you shall be with me in paradise. Where did Christ go? to paradise, and that's the first time paradise is used in the New Testament. The next time is Paul says that he went to paradise, and then the next time is in the book of Revelation, referring to those who are overcomers.

Let's take a look at the top of the next page. I think it's worth mentioning right now that the issues that we've been discussing just in this last section of discussion are wrapped around, yet again, the hypostatic view, the idea that Christ is 100% God and 100% man. Every single one of the cults seems to have a very perspective on the hypostatic view that is not orthodox.

Yeah, it's not biblical. And failing to understand that, failing to convey that, is a serious problem. You end up with something that doesn't match up with scripture. You end up with something that, in this case, fails to convey the true gospel. Now I've got to believe something I don't believe, what Joyce Meyer just said. I'm not sure I want to read all the books to figure it out, but it would be interesting to know what path she took to come to some of these statements. This statement is a frequent charismatic conclusion, and I've even seen video where they have this guy playing Jesus and all these devils are dancing around And Joyce Meyer, I didn't include it in here, Joyce Meyer actually describes the devils jumping up and down in glee on top of Jesus in hell. And you've got to believe that or you're not going to heaven.

So it's like, what? Where did that come from? But it comes from frequent charismatic teaching, and that error gets derived from a double translation in what's called the Apostles' Creed. Instead of saying he descended into the lower parts of the earth, by the time you go through a couple of translations, he descended into hell. And that gets included in some versions of the Apostle's Creed. And then from there they go and embellish it with demons having a heyday and jumping up and down throwing a party because they've got Jesus down in hell.

Where's the passage that it says that he went Doesn't it say that he went into hell and released some spirits and then the ascending and descending and that real difficult passage? Yeah, you're talking about where Peter writes about that. I think it's 1 Peter, I'm not sure. Where Peter writes about that and it talks about him being proclaimed to the spirits in prison, Tartarus. Yeah, but it also says something about he went into prison to release the spirits and then Ascending and descending?

I'm not sure what you're talking about with that one. We can talk about that separately. Another one on the top of page four is, Father, into your hands I commit my spirit. Not into the hands of these demons and devils and whatnot. So we have from both, today you'll be with me in paradise, and into your hands, Father, I commit my spirit. That's telling us he was with the Father during the time his body was in the tomb.

Now we have another one here from Benny Hinn. Popular faith healer Benny Hinn explains the Trinity. There's nine of them. I know, but there's nine of them. It goes into this, you know, thing. And I was rather amazed on that, but it's actually a YouTube video as well as written reference to that. So, wow.

So at any rate, you know, what you see in Scripture is very clearly, Scripture very clearly teaches the Trinity. We have kind of a diagram there that briefly shows it. In the book of Ephesians, for example, there are eight places in Ephesians, starting early in the first chapter, where the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all given in the same verse or passage context. So scripture very clearly teaches a trinity, but Benny Hinn says there's nine of them. Nine of them in the Godhead.

So anyway, now there's something else to take a look at. A caution with any parachurch ministry. With church, you have something that's definitely taught in scripture. What I spent time in both Poland and Uganda teaching on is here's what the Bible teaches about elders and deacons. and going through that, and there's quite a bit of teaching. In both cases, it took multiple sessions to cover all of what the Bible says about elders and deacons in a church context. When you get into a para-church ministry, that is, it's not specifically a church, you kind of are stepping into precarious background because there's no direct biblical guidance on how do you run a parachurch ministry biblically. And so it's real easy for these guys to call themselves a ministry when in fact they're stepping way outside of anything that's specifically biblical.

And one of the things we went over in both places is here are the character qualifications. of an elder or a deacon, and one of those is not, as we showed earlier, an elder or deacon should not be one who is in love with the silver, has an affectionate attachment for silver. So look at the top of page 5, one characteristic of the elders in the New Testament is that they are plural. Elders are not found to be high-profile. Except for James, Jesus' half-brother in Jerusalem, we don't know for sure the name of any elder in the whole New Testament.

They are a position of humility. They're called shepherds. And how well were shepherds regarded in the culture? Not so much. So it is a position of humility. One of the things I told the guys in Uganda, I said, the highest level of authority that scripture authorizes is an elder, but they serve from the bottom. This is not an exalted position. And by the way, that's a problem I found in both Poland and Uganda, pride among those serving as elders. And it's a serious problem. We don't have that here. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, so it's a big one. It's the United States, not here. Yeah.

Essentially, you know, the elder, the position of an elder is one you're going to work hard and you've got all these character qualifications. If you want to make a name for yourself, forget it. That's also why they were already doing the role or responsibilities of an owner before they became owners. They had no honor, and before they took on a position that might have honor with it. We make a lot of the title pastor. There's no place where an elder is given a title pastor or anything like that.

There's one place where it uses a noun to describe the role, and that's Ephesians 4.11. But when Paul talks about shepherding, he uses the verb. In Acts 20, when Peter writes about shepherding in 1 Peter 5, he uses the verb. God's more interested in action than titles, right?

So that's one thing, is you'll find these guys frequently not stepping into the role of an elder, which is largely an anonymous role, not someone seeking high profile. But the televangelists are frequently selling their brand. That is, they're promoting themselves and their names.

And then the next one, while churches can and often do operate slightly or widely outside of what has been revealed in the New Testament, parachurch ministries are often not set up as churches but as non-profit corporations having a tax-exempt status.

The following has been observed among televangelist parachurch ministries. One, tax-exempt status is often used to accumulate substantial net worth for the high-profile leader and sometimes the extended family of the high-profile leader. One particular case in that is Joyce Meyer, where the extended family has benefited greatly. So, on page one we gave some examples of those who accumulated a lot of wealth. The next thing here, while elders, shepherds and overseers are generally anonymous in the New Testament and are supposed to be plural in number, the televangelists who are selling their brand are typically presented as a single person or sometimes as a couple. You think of some televangelist couples. Pardon?

Jim and Tammy Faye. Jim and Tammy Faye, right? Tammy Faye is no longer on earth. She's probably, you know, I would say had to answer the Lord for some things. Yeah, Jimmy Baker, I could tell stories anyway. But yeah, there's one. We had the crouches, you know. had their television ministry as a couple. Both Tammy Faye and Mrs. Crouch did the big hair thing. And a lot of emotional appeal. A bit much. So you have that.

1 Timothy 2, 11-14 calls for women not to teach or have authority over men in the church context. This is frequently set aside in some regard among televangelists. Joyce Meyer, Marilyn Hickey, etc. Joel Osteen was appointed a pastor of Lakewood Church by his mother on the death of his father. So even though you've got a guy there who's designated as the pastor, It's his mother that put him there, and he frequently has his wife teaching alongside him as well. So this is another thing that has been violated a number of times, and there are other televangelists who are carrying that out.

Since the high-profile leader of the ministry is often in the position of substantial organizational power, there is generally no objective accountability regarding morals, ethics, doctrine, etc. You have this guy who is a high-profile guy and he usually sets himself up as the president and chairman of the board and all those kinds of things. Not answerable for anything. And so when these guys, you know, go off and do something that's immoral, unethical, you know, they teach false doctrine, there's nobody to correct them, hold them accountable, etc. The only time when they do get held accountable is when they do something that's patently illegal and they get caught, in which case the government has to carry it out. And that was, you know, the Bakers were one couple where that was the case.

Joyce Myers currently got some legal movements against her because, like I say, the county assessor is not too happy about what she's doing. So there are things like that that become an issue. Those who fail in one or more of these areas are often retained in their place with little or no corrective, recourse, consequences, restoration process, etc. Third John 9 is John's third letter, a short one. He says, I wrote something to the church, but Diotrephes, who loves to be first among them, does not accept what we say. Loves to be first. That's a problem. You don't listen to the apostles. That's a real accountability problem. Yes?

One of the things that I think is fascinating about scammers And these people all do it. Because they say something that's really, really exaggerated, which is pretty obviously not right. And it's actually a technique they use to get buy-in. You get the same sort of thing when you get an email from a scammer, and they're saying, I'm the financial advisor to the dead king from this country who's been deposed, and we just need your bank account. They say something absurd, and then if you can't filter out the absurdity, then they know they've got you for your money. And it's the same scamming technique that a lot of these people use.

Well, God wants you to send me $1,000 so that he can give you $10,000. Why? How? You don't ask that question. You've just got to walk by faith. and the scammers scam. Right. And when he cleans out your bank account. And you have no accountability. Yeah. You have no accountability, so therefore, you know, you keep taking money. Yeah.

Yeah, the lack of accountability thing, you know, gets some of them into trouble to the point where they're doing things that are illegal. But frequently, the immoral and unethical thing just keeps on going. You know, and one of them that came up with, you know, Jimmy Swaggart, you know, with moral problems and he just went right back to it after, you know, saying I'm sorry and all that. Yeah, Morgan? Are these people just dudes? Like, are they thinking they're walking in truth and they're just believing a bunch of lies? I mean...

You know, the reality is with a lot of them, especially where they're raking in millions of dollars in many cases, Like Benny Hinn, his net worth is about 40 plus million, but the income to his organization is over a hundred million dollars a year. Just phenomenal. And even teaching things like the Trinity really consists of nine persons and not just three. Crazy stuff. So a lot of them, I think they're aware that they're putting on a fraud. One of them, this is a good time to show it, Peter Popov.

His fraud was exposed in 1986 and the following year he had to file bankruptcy. He had a little device in his ear and his wife would stand around the back when people were coming in and if they talked about their medical condition, when they walked by her, then she would report to him, the person sitting in this chair here has this medical condition. Then it would appear that he has this special revelation that this person has this medical condition and we're going to pray for you today. Make sure you pick up your magical healing oil as you exit and that kind of stuff. So anyway, some guys went in there with some frequency scanners and picked this thing up and recorded it. So his fraud was exposed. Next year he filed bankruptcy, but he's still back to the same thing. He's a con man. He has been. He still is. And he's still doing his con.

And so in some cases it's very evident, they know what they're doing, they're even strategizing with family members and whatnot. In some cases, I suppose some folks have some self-delusion. I heard, I think it was briefly Hank Hanegraaff, and he's got some problems too, but he said that they followed up on a lot of the miracles and healings from Benny Hinn. after all these healings supposedly took place and they couldn't find supposedly one legitimate healing after a period of time. And this kind of falls into the same basket as Oral Roberts and the fact that he lives in a $10 million home and the press just uses this to destroy the faith of a lot of people because they show the fraud. And so they think they're doing a good thing. I think probably if you really ever talk to them they probably are sincere to a certain degree saying that they're doing a good thing. But they're destroying the faith of Yeah, when a skeptic goes in and investigates that, they see there's fraud, inception, things like that, and it just doesn't work.

Or the guy in Colorado Springs. Yeah. I think, Marilyn, you had another question? In some cases, yes. What's interesting is Joyce Meyer, because I've had a lot of things to say and I haven't put down everything because a lot of it's just almost hilarious, but she is actually a part of the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability. So you can get all of her statements and find out that she's worth millions. So yeah, they can actually, in some cases, here's all my money and here's what I'm worth and all that, and still just keep doing what they're doing. A couple things.

Are there any, well I guess there's, are there any examples of organizations out there on television that may be highly incumbent, that are operating scripturally and organizationally in a scriptural manner? And also, on Benny Hinn, is there any elaboration on those nine points of his whole character? You can look, I give a reference here for the video. The bottom line is, instead of going to scripture, a number of these guys will have some kind of bypass around scripture.

I get this additional revelation, and that's where Joyce Meyer and those who are in her camp will come up with this, you know, Jesus went to hell and there's the demons jumping up and down, throwing a party as they're, you know, on top of Jesus and all that. So he said that for a long time. It's been a while. I think one of the other things you look at here, and that's right before I have a conclusion, this is really addressing your question, Steve.

Like groups within Christendom which have some channel of additional revelation and or authority outside of Scripture, or authority over the interpretation of Scripture, televangelists will often have some basis of revelation and authority outside of Scripture and or over Scripture, and that authority is typically placed in one or two people. very commonly placed.

We've mentioned, for example, the Mormons will have the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, the Pearl of Great Price, and so they'll have those additional books. But they have apostles where they get ongoing revelations, and that's why they can, you know, in the earlier decades of the Mormon Church, have their own monetary system, their own military, and have battles with the U.S. military, and then have this revelation all of a sudden that, no, we're not going to do that anymore.

Not on Earth. And to have themselves compatible with the U.S. government and U.S. military. So they get an additional revelation, subsequent revelation. And by the way, they still say that polygamy is going to be the case in heaven. So they're going to continue it there, just not here.

But you'll have with these guys some revelation or authority outside of Scripture or interpretation of Scripture that overrides Scripture. And that's essentially what a lot of the other cult groups will do. There's some authority outside of scripture or a way that we view scripture, for example, the Seventh-day Adventists and their LNG White.

Everything is looked at through the lens of LNG White's writings. So it doesn't matter what it says directly, you have to, according to the way they view it, look through their writings. So the same kind of thing happens with a lot of these televangelist ministries, where everything is viewed through what one or two people say about the Bible. And nobody knows how to study it, question it, go directly to scripture, because that's in fact discouraged. So conclusion, we could say far more about the televangelists and various points, but the key points are clear. Believers are to evaluate everything by means of scripture. So we look at scripture first. That requires that we know how to understand scripture. And there is even, I would say, a responsibility to look at, where am I putting my money?

Because these televangelists have lots of money appeals and it's either give me the money or they're selling you some magic, like Popov has this oil and water and special magic sticks that he sells. And you buy these things and he charges for these miracle oil and miracle water and the miracle sticks. a miracle stick and you wear it on a chain around your neck and it's supposed to help this miracle happen. Either you're trading for something, buying something that's bogus, or just send me your money. So they frequently do that. So the responsibility for where I'm giving my money is something that a lot of Christians don't get. That I really need to discern, is this a good place to put my money or am I feeding a problem, which is in fact the case with many of these guys.

But believers ought also to set aside anything that bypasses the authority of Scripture or sets aside the need to understand Scripture. If somebody tells you, well, you don't need to understand it, we'll tell you what it means. We as believers can understand scripture by examining it directly. And that's exactly what we ought to do. And anybody who wants to set that aside is highly suspect. Highly suspect because they're trying to pull something.

Any other thoughts, questions? Randy? There's a common thread in the magic entertainment world called mentalism. And in mentalism you It's basically the same thing that they do when you go to get your cars read, or someone's going to read your palms and tell your future. You ask open-ended questions in vague ways, and people answer the questions for themselves.

And a lot of these people will say, God wants to heal somebody here who's got cancer. If you're in a room with 500 people and they've already come to see somebody who might heal them, what are the chances that somebody has cancer? I saw a guy for a dollar who recently had a stroke. What a name, you know? I saw him one time getting ready for church one morning in Texas and he said, God wants to heal somebody here at Bates.

And this woman in the middle of the audience jumped up, screaming up and down, crying. It's like, well, now everybody in the room knows that she has AIDS. Yeah. Yes. Okay, that's a very serious thing that you just did. You violated trust and privacy, and why does she still has AIDS? Yeah.

That's huge. Yeah, it's a serious problem. When we were living in Carson City, Nevada, we knew at least as acquaintances, two ladies who had been told by Benny Hinn that they'd been healed of their breast cancer. Both those ladies are home with the Lord now. So, yeah. They're playing with serious things and playing awfully casually with it. So, yeah. It's a problem.

Is it Laura Roberts that had to expect a miracle? Yes. Well, and I think that's a question. Should we expect a miracle? Can God do miracles? God can do miracles. Expecting a miracle, however, is something else in this era outside of the period of the apostles.

So, you know, Nancy and I both had medical conditions some 20 plus years ago. While we were in the middle of praying, before we said Amen, Nancy was healed. I was not. The Lord said, nope. So, should I have expected a miracle for both of us? No, apparently not. And I've seen that happen in other cases as well. Expect a miracle? No, that's presumption.

Can God heal? Yes, He certainly can. and he can heal miraculously and instantly if he wishes and if that's within his will. People like that also show the fraud of science and mind because they're saying in science and mind obviously that you just believe that you're ill. Here's people that are preaching faith and you go to those seminars or whatever and you have all the faith in the world if you believe in these people and yet you still are not healed.

So it shows the fraud of... Yeah, along that line I had a great aunt who was a Christian science practitioner and she died of a goiter she didn't have. Right? Yeah, this is fraudulent. The reality is that things are scientifically observable, and people do in fact get ill, and it's not just bad thinking. And God can heal. We should not go about expecting that God will heal. A lot of the healing passages that they look at either look at something that the apostles or Jesus did, or they look in the Old Testament with promises to the Jews if they would obey. And so they'll go and claim those. But that was to the Jews, that was their blessings and curses here on earth. I'm not understanding that. Okay, we've got people pressing up against the door almost here, so let's pray.

Lord, we thank you that in fact your love for us is genuine. In fact, you have laid out what is true. And we thank you for that. You've laid out in your word what is true because you love us and you care for us. And Lord, we know that regardless of what happens, regardless of conditions that we have, that you do have a purpose even in those things that aren't healed. We see that even evident in Paul's life. Now we just thank you for your love and care and faithfulness. We pray in Jesus' name. Amen.