Holly Hills' Ministry in Music - Part I

Good morning. We are beginning today a five-part series, at least at present that's the way it looks. A five-part series on just kind of some Holly Hills ministry topics. And today we'll be looking at music. We'll be doing something a little bit differently, and that is we'll provide the opportunity for people at the end to ask questions. And so if you want to rant or something like that, that's fine. But do it some other time. This will be a time for asking questions to get clarification. And so we'll have the opportunity to do that afterwards.

Let's go ahead and start into it. We have these five topics. The ministry and music will be the one for today. Elders and deacons, through love, serve one another. teaching topics and electives. How do we do that? And missionaries and our approach to missions. And so we'll be taking a look at those five in the next five weeks here. And start with the ministry of music here today.

Now in this area of music it's a very interesting thing. Over time I've gotten quite a bit of feedback. I'm not talking about the PA system. I mean talking about, you know, people talking Whether indirectly or directly, some people after a particular service or maybe even a specific song, they'll say, man, that was just great. You can just do that anytime. That is just wonderful.

And then we'll get somebody else that said, don't ever do that again. That was just terrible. Now, what's really difficult is they'll get that same feedback on the same song. And that makes it real difficult, exactly what should we do. Well, in addition to that, we'll get some people who will say, a little louder, a little louder still, that's too loud. And so anyway, we'll get that feedback. Oh, that's not all. We're not even close to done. We'll have some folks that say everything is OK. Just play all kinds of stuff. You know, just anything will do. Everything is OK. And if somebody wants to sing it, we'll do it. And other folks will tell me, you know, that really should have been left on the cutting room floor. You really need to not sing that song and that sort of thing.

So we'll get some mixed feedback that way. Oh, let me tell you, this is puzzling. Then another person says, now I want to have a mountaintop experience every Sunday. And matter of fact, we've had folks leave before I even get up here because they want some other kind of music than what we're offering. Then there are those who say, I don't care what you play as long as it doesn't disturb my sleep in the pew. And so very mixed kinds of feedback here. Oh, we're not done. Then we'll have some say, I don't care what it is.

We've got to get more newfangled stuff, right? More newfangled stuff. It's got to be that. And other folks say, I don't care what it is as long as it's really old. And so we'll have that. Fascinating points of feedback. We'll have some folks that say, I like it real informal and folksy. And other folks who say, no, we need to formalize this a little bit more. Get the tuxes on, right? So anyway, there's quite a bit of variety in the feedback.

Here's another one that's been real interesting. There is, of course, the conventional melody for this. You know, when I survey the wondrous cross. That's the one that's in the hymnal. I think it's number 121. Then we've been introduced to one that I'll call the Appalachian melody. And in fact, Nancy and I love that Appalachian melody.

However, apparently we're the only ones that do. We've gotten lots of feedback. The other folks don't like it. So what do you do? I should put more thumbs down on it. Anyway, so what do we do? Well, let's talk about that. So what do we do with the music at Holly Hills? How should we decide what we sing and don't sing? And how are we going to make these kind of decisions? What are the factors we should consider? Should we rock it out? Should we just throw rocks? Should we stand on the rock?

Well, let's take a look here. What you have on your handout on the first slide is this, is the poetic pattern from John 4, 23 and 24. And one of the things that you'll notice in the pattern is a repeated set of words, in truth and spirit, is a part of a repeated set of words there twice in those two verses, once in each verse.

And this is in the context of Jesus speaking with the Samaritan woman. And of course, many of you are familiar with that account. According to the culture, Jesus shouldn't even have been talking to this woman. A Jew talking to a Samaritan, that would have been out of limits. A Jewish man talking to a Jewish woman, or Samaritan woman, that would have been out of limits, the male-female mix. She was there at the wrong time of day, likely because of her reputation. Nothing about it should have taken place, culturally speaking.

But nonetheless it did, and Jesus actually intentionally went out of his way to talk to her. You see, the Samaritans had it this way, being in great part the result of the Assyrians having taken a number of Jews to a place in another part of the Assyrian Empire and then bringing Gentiles in. They had developed an entirely different set of traditions as to how things ought to be done with the temple and the priests and all that.

So here in Shechem, and this is a perspective where you see the two major mountains above Shechem, is Mount Gerizim, and this is the remains of some temple structures that were up on top of that mountain. So when Jesus was talking to the Samaritan woman, and she talks about this mountain, that's the mountain and this is the place.

So they could see it from the well that they were talking about. And the Jews, of course, this is a computer reconstruction of Jerusalem during New Testament times. You can see in the lower part from the Mount of Olives a bridge across the valley leading into the temple area. Temple area is about the size of six football fields, soccer fields if you prefer.

And so the Samaritan woman wanted to bring up location and practices as the big issue. So although the Samaritan women wanted to do that, Jesus went to the heart of the matter. What does God really want? And sometimes I think that's a very good question for us to ask. What does God really want about our worship?

Frequently we are inclined to ask, boy, that was a really good worship service. Or I really enjoyed that. Or some people will even tell us, your worship service gets an F. Because you don't get me all pumped up and by the way, you got to get me pumped up enough that while I get deflated during the week I'm not down to zero by the time I come back, right? But so what's the question here?

What does God want? Jesus said that the real issues are spiritual worship Okay spiritual worship of the father truth in that worship in recognition of who Jesus really is and That's where Jesus brought the emphasis. The Samaritan woman was inclined to talk about traditions, inclined to talk about locations. Jesus said, it's about the Father. It's about what does he want. It's about truth. It's about being truly spiritual, not just location and how do I feel. It's about recognizing who Jesus actually is.

In the following verses, right after that, this is not in your handout, but John 4, 25 and 26, the woman said to him, I know that Messiah is coming. He was called Christ. When that one comes, he will declare all things to us. And in verse 26, Jesus said to her, and I've expanded this a little bit from the Greek, Jesus says, I, being in fact God, who speak to you, am he. Jesus said it with words that said, I, being in fact God, who speak to you, am he, I am the Messiah.

Stunning words, no doubt. See, one of the things that we find is spirit and truth can actually stand against feelings and traditions. One of the most entrenched errors in modern Christianity is assuming that feelings of blessing and of ministry are the main criteria. Get this, feelings of blessing and of ministry are the main criteria for establishing what is spiritual and what is the truth. Most of Christendom has gone in that direction. Now, when I say that, am I saying that feelings are wrong? No. Not at all. Am I saying that tradition is wrong? No, not at all. But what's the basis for those? That's the question. There is a place for feelings. There is a place for tradition. But what's the basis? That's the issue. Now, let me give you an analogy.

Many of you know that I just love little kids. You know, here I got a whole, well, more than I can hold. And matter of fact, Nancy, at one point in time, we had three kids. And she said, in your heart of hearts, how many kids would you like? And I said, six. And she never asked me again.

So I love kids. I really do. I love kids. But I don't want them driving. I don't want them behind the steering wheel. So this is the point. It's not that I'm at all against feelings and traditions. Don't get me wrong. But there is a proper place for those and the priority has to be on what's the scriptural founding for whatever we do. All right.

So with the Jews and the Samaritans, they certainly had very strong feelings for each of them. It was entangled with the group's long-standing traditions. The Jews were so passionate about it that Jesus basically broke the code by going into Samaria. The typical thing was even if it took you extra time, if you were a good Jew, you would walk around Samaria. You would go around the whole area of Samaria, I'm not trying to be a poet, and you would avoid it.

Why? Because of strong feelings and traditions that were in conflict between the two groups. Christ set spirit and truth as to what God is looking for, not the feelings and traditions. Okay to have feelings? Yes. Okay to have traditions? Certainly. But the basis is spirit and truth. One way to put it is this. The spiritual facts based in reality is revealed in scripture. We put our faith and trust in what God has revealed. The feelings are founded on top of that. They're not the basis. See the difference there? Another way to put it is this.

Between faith, facts, and feelings, the facts are like the tracks. So it's faith and the facts are like the train on the tracks. Faith in the facts is like the train on the tracks, and the feelings are the caboose. Do you want a caboose on a train? Yes, you do. You want that caboose there. Don't leave it off, but just remember what comes first.

Faith in the facts is like the train on the tracks. Now, here's another verse we'll be taking a look at. Here's the poetic pattern in Romans 15, 5 and 6. It says, Now may the God who gives perseverance and encouragement grant you to be of the same mind with one another according to Christ Jesus, so that with one accord you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Now, so when it says one accord, he wants all believers to be in one accord, right? Anybody have an accord out in the parking lot here? Okay. Probably that's not quite what he means, huh? Literally it means the same harmonious passion. The same harmonious passion. That's very interesting. To be in one accord.

And then what's translated one voice literally means one mouth. Can you imagine that? One mouth. That we as believers with one mouth glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. That even in our worship, in our singing, what we sing, there is to be a unity. And notice that that unity is not just on the outside. It starts at the inside. Why do I say that? One mind. The unity starts in one mind. It goes all the way to glorifying the Lord with one mouth.

Being of that same mind, as we in fact have the mind of Christ, And of that same-mindedness is a common theme all throughout the New Testament. Several churches were urged to be of the same mind. As a matter of fact, we quote this out of Romans 15. Romans 12, 16 says the same thing. Be of the same mind. I would conclude from that, since it's repeated, that it's very important.

Being of one accord and having the same spiritual passion so as to glorify the Lord with one mouth. That's what God has in mind. The unity from mind to passion to voice is what God has in mind. Isn't that amazing? It's not just, let's set aside our difference so we can sing the song together. It starts from the heart. We are from the same mind, have the same passion, and glorify the Lord, as Paul puts it, with one mouth. That kind of unity.

The unity of the body of Christ starts really deep, really deep. You have again a slide that starts with this on page 1, the poetic pattern, Ephesians 5, I have 18c, that's the last part of verse 18 through verse 19. And you must be filled with Christ. I have that in Christ in brackets. I won't go into it, but it's something we covered sometime back in Ephesians.

By means of the Spirit, which results in speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs. Singing and making melody. And I've changed the translation here to make it really clear. Singing and making melody with the heart of you. The heart is singular. Isn't that interesting? This is all of you out there, although there's a bunch of you, one heart. We as believers, isn't this interesting? The same mind, the same heart, the same passion, the same voice, the same mouth. A phenomenal unity. Wow. Singing and making melody with the one heart of you to the Lord.

Ephesians 4.25 also spells out something else. Therefore, laying aside falsehoods, speak truth.

And that word for speak is the same one here in Ephesians 5.19. Speak truth, each one of you, with his neighbor, who remembers one of another. So not only is there unity of mind, unity of passion, and unity of voice, it's truthful. It's truthful.

Now, that's compared in this slide to Colossians 3.16, centered in the passage that Randy read for us. The word of Christ must richly dwell within you with all wisdom, teaching one another and admonishing one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs.

It's interesting the variation here, singing with the thankfulness in the hearts of you to the God. It's plural hearts, different from the Ephesians 5 passage, but it's the singular thankfulness. Isn't it interesting? A one singular thankfulness among all of us. In the hearts of you to God, to the God.

Colossians 128, earlier in this book of Colossians, has this pattern. We proclaim Him, that is Christ, out of the context, admonishing every man, teaching every man with all wisdom, so that we may present every man complete in Christ. The same three words. Now, this every man means every person. It's not specifically male. So the Greek isn't specific to just the male gender there.

Then this word complete means spiritually mature. Now what's fascinating, Colossians 128 and Colossians 316, so the beginning and farther towards the end of the book, contain the exact same common words, admonishing teaching with all wisdom, both in the English and in the original language in the Greek, but the words and phrases are in reverse order.

If we look at this, Colossians 3.16, Christ does indwell each of us believers, but notice there's an urging in this passage. Our making the word of Christ at home in us, that is dwelling in us richly, is given as an imperative. Christ dwells in you if you're a believer. That's not at issue.

But at home in us, that's different. at home in us. Think of what it means to be at home. We tend to think of at home and we think of things that, okay, we maybe feel comfortable. Maybe there's security there. We kind of personalize it, go in and make it our own place, right? So make the Word of Christ at home in you. Make it fit you. Make it a place of comfort and security. Make it personal. It's a must that is rooted in our position. Christ is already there. That's not the issue. But is he at home? That's his urging. The music among us is one of God's instruments for making the word of Christ at home in us.

It's the cause to make the spirit and truth of the message of Christ himself personally. Ever heard somebody say, don't take that personally? I advise exactly the opposite here. Do take it personally, okay? Increasingly making its home in all of our hearts so that our comfort and familiarity comes from there. Christ at home in us. The music is intended to be that instrument. Our music is to teach and admonish one another here. in all godly wisdom, so content does matter as a priority.

It must be in spirit and truth as measured by scripture, but not by our feelings. The feelings are secondary. Again, am I saying ignore the feelings? No. Am I saying you don't have feelings? No. But the priority is on what's the content, what's the truth, right? Good feelings regarding our worship and music are a hopeful byproduct of worship and music that is principally biblical.

I was sitting down with Brad Mastin yesterday, and of course he's up at Fort Collins Bible Church. By the way, that's where the Hemingways are this morning. And Brad was up at Fort Collins Bible Church as of the first of this year. And he was saying, yeah, we had somebody come in to the church service and they left.

And most of the time, we don't find out why they leave. But this one fellow stopped for just a minute because I asked him, you know, anything we can do to help you? And he says, your music, just I don't feel it. And that was it. It didn't have anything to do with what was said, or the content, or the message, or anything else. I just don't feel it.

Now, he has as a common term both the Colossians and the Ephesians passage, Psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs. Let's talk about what those are. Psalms are used particularly among the Jews to refer to the Psalms that are out of the Old Testament. But the more general usage among the pagans was to use that word for songs about God, not to God, but about God. So it has a meaning that's a little different than what we might ordinarily think. And then the next one, hymns, similar, a meaning different than what we ordinarily would think. We would usually think of a hymn as an older tune or an older set of verses. but the hymns refer to things spoken directly to God. Psalms about God, hymns directly to God. Spiritual songs are songs that are spiritual in content, not necessarily to God or talking about God specifically. Well, so we could draw them like this because in fact there are songs that can have a mixture of these and can switch, as we'll see shortly, right in the middle of the song from one to another.

Varieties of content and worship to teach and admonish one another in godly wisdom are built into the scriptures here. It's okay to have that variety in terms of the different kinds of content. Here is an example. Amazing Love, which is number 37 in our hymnal, that first part in there is a psalm. What I mean by that is written about God. Right? It's written about God. But the second part is a hymn. Why? Because it's directly to God. See the difference there? So this one is a mixture. The first part is a psalm, the second part is a hymn. At least by the definitions of the biblical terms.

But, we go from there to Amazing Grace and guess what? It's a spiritual song. Because it doesn't talk directly to God, and it's not directly about God. It's a spiritual song talking about biblical principles that apply to us. Great song. This, by the way, has been repeatedly ranked the most popular hymn out there. Amazing grace. So there's psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs. And that's examples of all three. You can have mixtures. You can have songs that include all three, even. So at Holly Hills.

We're going to employ music and the lyrics as part of our whole worship of the Lord, in spirit and in truth. And we will exercise discernment about the lyrical content of the music using God's Word. It's as simple as this. Discernment. What does God's Word say? Do these songs, since they are teaching one another, right? Since we are teaching one another, do these songs teach what God's Word says?

So, we're going to sing songs like, Jesus I am resting, resting. We probably won't add too many restings on there, but anyway, Jesus I am resting, resting. It's fully biblical, isn't it? Ought we not to rest in the Lord? We most certainly should. So, and I have to look at the last part of that first verse, Thou hast bid me gaze upon Thee, and Thy beauty fills my soul, for by Thy transforming power Thou hast made me whole.

Almost sounds like 2 Corinthians 3.18. So it's a very biblical song.

Here's a song that's basically Psalm 51.10. It's been written and set to music by Kim Burrell. It says, Create in me a new heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me. Cast me not away from thy presence, O God, and take not thy Holy Spirit from me. It is certainly biblical as far as being reflecting Psalm 5110. However, why would we choose not to sing it? Let me ask you this question.

This was written for, written by, a man who is under the law, who is a Jew. You are in the church. Has God created a new heart in you already? Yes. You are a new creature. The Bible says that. Renew a right spirit within me. By the way, you have the Holy Spirit within you, right?

Cast me not away from thy presence. Are we going to be cast away from God's presence? No. We're seated in the heavenlies. Take not thy Holy Spirit from me. In the New Testament, it is abundantly clear, if you're a believer, you have the Holy Spirit within you. You don't need to plead that the Holy Spirit be taken away. Not be taken away.

How deep the Father's love. Sorry, I got some font issues here. How deep the Father's love for us. How vast beyond all measure. Perfectly biblical song. We'll sing it, right? standing on the promises, standing on the promises that cannot fail when the howling storms of doubt and fear assail.

You might notice here that we drop off the first verse and add an X verse. One of the things that happens is in many cases the author has actually written more verses than what are put in our hymnal and so sometimes as I examine it I'll find that a verse that's been dropped out of our hymnal is a great verse. And so we'll sing that instead. Here is the second verse of Standing on the Promises that is not in our hymnal, but I've included it. Standing on the promises I now can see perfect present cleansing in the blood for me. Standing in the liberty where Christ makes free. Standing on the promises of God.

So we include that. We'll choose that even though it's not in the hymnal. So we have that as our X verse from time to time. Singing songs that stand on God's promises and the things God has done is biblical, but not singing promises that we make to God. It's standing on His promises that count, not my making promises to Him that I might fail at, right? We won't discern on the basis of doctrinal belief of the author of any song, but on the lyrical content of the song itself. You see that?

We will sing songs that are written by people with whom we may have some area of disagreement. But what we will look at is the song content itself. Graham Kendrick, for example, He's one, let's see, I think this year he's 60 years old. Written some great music. He also has a background where there are some things that he would write that we would not agree with. And so we don't sing all of his songs, we'll sing some of them. A British fellow. I don't think the songs have to be sung with a British accent though.

Charles Wesley is one who wrote over 6,000 hymns, okay? He also has some things that he believed, he lived in the 1700s, things that he believed that we would not agree with, so we just won't sing all of his songs, and you're probably glad we're not going to sing 6,000 hymns this morning, right? We do find some of his hymns to be great and so we'll sing some of those.

Fanny Crosby lived from 1820 to 1915. She had an open door invitation with many of the presidents of the United States in her later years. She could just walk right in and they just put everything aside and Fanny's here and that's good enough. Very well received, wrote over 8,000 hymns though she was blind from infancy. She later on married a man who was also blind. But one of the wonderful things, and we'll see here shortly, one of the wonderful things is most of her hymns included some words about seeing. And she would tell people, she would say, you know, it's really neat being blind because guess what is the first thing I'm going to see? I'm going to walk in heaven's gates, and there's the Lord. She says, it's wonderful. What a hope that I have. And so she would put that hope into her songs.

So we will sing Graham Kendrick's Knowing You, because the words are great. We'll choose perhaps not to sing some of the other things that he wrote. He also wrote Amazing Love, not the one that's in our hymnal, but another version, and Meekness and Majesty that we sang just last week. We will sing Charles Wesley's Christ the Lord is Risen Today. Great song. Now some very interesting things about it.

Not all the verses were written by him. Even at that, it was a modification of a 14th century Latin hymn. Alleluia was added by the printer. The printer looked at it and said, oh, that's good. I think we ought to add Alleluia. So he added Alleluia onto the end of all those lines. So when we sing, Christ the Lord is risen today, and then do the Alleluia part, that was the printer's part. Imagine Charles Wesley's surprise when this thing comes back. It was originally titled, Hymn for Easter Day. So it's been highly modified and I think even much to Charles Wesley's surprise, added to. But great, great hymn. You'll notice we've dropped out verse 3. Verse 3 has some content in it we wouldn't agree with, but the rest of it is wonderful, right? Blessed Assurance. Blessed Assurance, Jesus is mine. Got all three verses there. This is one of the most favorite ones of Fanny Crosby. She also wrote, To God Be the Glory and Praise Him, Praise Him among her 8,000 plus different hymns. Wonderful song and we're happy to sing it. How Great Thou Art. Real interesting.

Written by, essentially, a Swedish poet in 1885. It was originally written, of course, in Swedish, but there have been German versions, Russian versions, and several English versions, last modified in 1973. Verses have been added, removed, and translated.

And I was looking at the Russian translation, and I'm glad we don't sing those. It was just all about everybody's defiled everything, and God's mad, you know? So, and it doesn't sound at all uplifting, like, how great thou art. Anyway, that's the Russian folks. Okay. So, at Holly Hills, the song is to say what is true. Again, truth. Speak truth.

This is what Ephesians 4.25 says. The song is to say what is true of God and our relationship with Him, with one another, and all things that God's Word addresses. We sing about it. It's a good thing.

We won't be using our feelings as the basis for measuring our blessings, however. Will we acknowledge feelings? Do we have them? Yes. And you've seen me up here at various times, I've expressed all sorts of feelings. Sometimes you might have regretted that I've expressed feelings. But nonetheless, we'll acknowledge them, but just won't use them as the basis for measuring what is true and what's spiritual.

Musical aspects of our worship are more subjective, but must be considered. And that's the tough one. Because it's subjective and not objective, one person will say, that's where I get the feedback, don't ever do that again. And somebody else comes up to me, the same song, same service, that was wonderful. And I'll get that kind of mixed feedback. And that's where the musical side of it can become difficult because of the subjective measurement of what is good and bad and that sort of thing.

What's interesting is many of these hymns when first introduced were looked down upon. A number of you are familiar with Handel's Messiah, right? There was a huge outcry against Handel's Messiah for decades. Decades. It was just thought of with great venom, and there were people writing against it, and having speeches against it, and protests. It took a long time before it was received and accepted.

So many of these hymns we look at and say, well, these are old favorites. A lot of them weren't favorites when they were first introduced. OK? So what do we like, and what's near and dear to our heart and all that? These are real difficult things to try to match up. and often has changed throughout the course of church history.

So we're probably not likely to rock it out, because in fact it can get in the way of the music. But we'll try to have a supportive musical volume and style, not at odds with the purpose of the message. We probably won't sing Amazing Grace to a big band, you know, a musical background, right?

That would mean we'll choose not to sing certain songs, certain verses, maybe set aside certain melodies, and occasionally change a word or two here and there. Now, something else, we have searched for songs and written some songs and encourage others to do so, especially in those areas of teaching and insight where there's a lack of such songs. What do I mean? There are certain areas, interestingly enough, where we just don't have that much music.

One of the things I said some time ago was that we don't have very much music that talks about our identification with Christ. Well at that, Andrew Molloy was listening and he said, here's one you brought buried with Christ that we sing from time to time. So there's that. Here is one where Hal wrote the words when he wrote the music if it weren't for the cross. That's one from right here. It's a Holly Hills creation. I came and I didn't see enough songs that talked about identification with Christ, so I wrote, In Christ I'm Eternally Blessed. Just to express something that you don't find much of in the hymnal.

Grace Upon Grace that we did earlier in the service is one that Randy put together to talk more about grace and resting in our position and put position and condition in there. So some truths that we talk about, there just aren't that many songs present.

So we'll write songs, we'll find songs, and that's something we'd certainly like to encourage. When people step forward to contribute to our worship in various ways, that's a great thing. That's a wonderful thing. We'll also encourage our body to look to God's Word in this area and look about, are there truths that are rarely expressed? Are there truths that can be expressed in a new way that will glorify the Lord? So we have passages like this where Psalms and hymns and spiritual songs are spelled out of different kinds.

And what's the core? Notice that both these passages, Ephesians and Colossians, it's from the heart. It's not superficial. We don't try to work up feelings from the outside. But the song is truth from the heart, the song is passion from the heart, the song is expressed with one voice. The truth that the Lord wants us to convey to one another as we worship the Lord and teach one another through the music that we sing.

Now, I'll give you a few seconds here to ponder your questions. We'll see if you have any. If there are no questions to be asked, Either I've answered every question you might possibly have already, and that's why you don't ask any questions. Or I've got you completely baffled. Or the third option is you're scared to death. Right? OK. So we'll see how that goes. So anybody got any questions? Yes? No? OK. It's one of those three options then, right? OK. What's that?

Kids want to do special songs? I think the thing is, let's put it this way, if you think there might be some questions or something, do that. Here is a comparison to that where I want what I teach to be something that all the elders can stand by. I don't want to be up here and then after the service have Roger come up and say, Burn, what are you doing? So what will I do? If I think there's any question, I'll run it past Roger and Mike first. It's all on the same page. So I think it's a question. You don't have to necessarily run everything, but if you think there might be a question, just ask. Yes?

What if you're a bad singer and you know it? What if you're a bad singer and you know it? I think it's very good that you know it. The thing I think to remember with this is we're here to worship the Lord. It's not a musical performance. Go ahead and make a joyful noise. You might want to think about how noisy you want to get, but nonetheless, yeah. Other questions? Did you have one?

Yeah, I think one of the things you look at is spirit and truth. You look at the points in that Romans 15 passage. Musical quality is always kind of a nice thing, and we're probably not likely to have a trio of special music with three people who can't sing. But in terms of worshiping the Lord, that's not a primary biblical criteria. Other questions, thoughts? Yeah, Jim?

Yeah, I wouldn't want to say that the elders are there to micromanage everything, and that's one of the reasons why we're having this gathering here, so that we're all on the same page. What would be the worst thing is to have you thinking, what are they thinking? Having no idea. So the best thing is to do like we're doing now, and to talk about it, and to look at it.

It's a tougher thing because we don't have some established biblical criteria, and it's within the context of the culture that you look at, okay, is this supportive and helpful and what's not? It is really tough and I gave the example of when I surveyed the Wondrous Cross.

It's not about like it's in some radically different musical style. It's a personal preference item and so we kind of have to pick something that is supportive and where the music doesn't get in the way. uh... but that is admittedly a tough one Yeah, and some of those are kind of judgment calls. You can have songs that are great solos, but just if you try to get everybody to sing them, it just doesn't work. And so it's the nature of the song.

So that's another one of those judgment calls that it's not like I got chapter and verse that tells me what to do. But it is a judgment call in the context of the culture. Randy? In the end, it's weird on the bridge. There's this non-connected part of the song that's been off the bridge. It's not connected to the song. Despite liking the song personally, it's probably not a good idea to try to keep putting it over and over again.

It's the way to get it done. The reality is that we teach grace and also grace in the music is something that is fitting as well. Not just grace in the words, but grace in our pattern and behavior among us. Yeah, Marilyn? Yes. I don't know what the circumstances were. Sorry about that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's basically the words are identical.

And when I surveyed the Wonders Cross, the words are identical. There's the conventional melody. So you got, you know, Yeah, it's, let's see, it's, when I survey the wondrous cross, is the conventional one, that's what's in the hymnal. But the alternate melody that we have sung some is, when I survey the wondrous cross, on which the Prince of Glory died.

Nancy and I love it. That's the only feedback that I've gotten that people like it. is when Nancy and I talk to one another. Yeah. So, you know, which is too bad. So we go around the house singing it, you know. One. I'm sorry. Go ahead. Yeah. Oh, yes. OK. So there's three. Yeah. Yeah. A four. OK. All right. Yeah. Randy. I did also want to say that it's every third Sunday If they want to hurt your feelings, I have to work at a whole lot harder. Right. Okay. Okay. Yes, Marilyn. It is difficult.

Some of the things we've tried are putting the notes up. One of the things we find is that it takes up so much space to go through a lot of slides. So what we did do with, for example, Buried with Christ, Yeah, now with everybody more on email, the possibility to email it out is there. Something else we've done is to have the handout available to different people. It's also a mixed bag because not everybody reads music, too. So it's like handing sheets full of Greek to some folks.

So anyway, but yeah, we can try to do that. It's got pluses and minuses both ways. I used to lay in worship every morning. You know, and oh, yeah. So anyway, I, you know, there were a lot of emotions. People really loved it. When I'm in this church and I hear the lyrics of the song at the time, I'm crying. I can't even sing. So that's the other side of that coin. Yeah, and another question is, what's new? Yeah, what's new? It's real interesting. Sometimes we'll think we've been through a song a number of times, and it still shows up as new to people. Yes, Norm?

Yeah, a lot of the older ones are in public domain. Yes. We have a license to be able to deal with things within our own church body. It's not a license to just go and spread it everywhere, but we do have a license within our own church body Yeah, we can distribute among ourselves here in this church body with no problem because we have the license, CCLI license. Yeah, that shouldn't be a problem, but very rarely.

Yeah, Jeremy? Yes. Jeremy asks a question, what about being of the same mind? And how does that look? I think certainly it says be of the same mind in terms of doctrinal points. On the musical side, I think one of the things is simply being more gracious with one another and realizing that the elements of style and even, you know, I like this melody versus that one, that those are not biblical issues. Obviously, things can get to a point where they just get in the way. One of the kind of miles ahead learning points for me was when I went over to Uganda for the first time.

Here I am out in this village. Most of the kids, Bruce and I are the first white men they've ever seen. Most of the people don't read. Matter of fact, if you were to tell them, you know, the church starts at 10 o'clock, they'd say, what's an o'clock? And then when you get there and you're like, we have words and I want the music and things like that. Well, there, that's just not even an issue. It wouldn't do any good to have the words and it wouldn't do any good to have the music. And so the songs that they sing to us would be all very repetitive. They would sing for quite a while. There's love in the name of the Lord. There's joy in the name of the Lord. There's peace in the name of the Lord.

And people would just randomly come up with other words. And otherwise, the rest of it's all repeated. And there's not a whole lot in the way of instruments. I think I saw two drums with really rough construction. And that was it. And yet, I didn't see anything was unbiblical. One of my first thoughts was, this would not fly at Holly Hills.

Because they use the music to call people to worship. They may start the music and the actual church service may not start for an hour and a half. Why? It's because the first people to get there are the alarm, are the notice the church is about to start. Whenever they get there.

Right? Okay. Other questions? Thoughts? Yes. Oh, yeah, if I have time, you know. I have them spinning around in my head, but it's a matter of getting time to it. Yeah. I'd like to. Other questions? Anyone, Bob? Okay. All right. Holly? What I would say is the first priority has to be the body here.

What I find attracts people varies all over the place and I suppose that if we've said hey we're going to have a six-piece rock band and a light show and have one of those fog machines so you can't see me, right? That would attract a lot of attention.

But I'm not necessarily sure it would bring primarily what we're looking for. Ultimately, we're focusing on teachings, and frankly, rather unusual teachings in some ways here at Holly Hills. And the focus is going to be on that. We certainly hope to accommodate people, We don't want to go outside of the fact that we're really ministering to the people here as our first priority. We don't intend to be offensive, but what I find that's very interesting is that we will have groups of people, and sometimes individuals, sometimes even larger groups, that walk out before I even get up to talk. And so obviously we've displeased them in some way. I'm not sure we would change a whole lot that would improve things from their standpoint. Other questions? Okay, Randy, why don't you come up and I'll pray.

Lord, we do thank you that as we look in this area of music, certainly there's some difficulties, there's even some surprises. But quite fortunately, we have your word. We have your Holy Spirit to guide and lead us in this area of music and worship. And certainly, Lord, we desire that the music here at Holly Hills be worshipful to you in spirit and in truth, and may indeed the word of Christ dwell in us richly. We pray in Jesus' name. Amen.