Person and Work of the Holy Spirit Lesson 22 continued

Alright, well we are in Lesson 22 and we're talking about baptism. Last week we left off with a doozy of a question. It had me thinking quite a bit. I wanted to circle back around to it. The question is, is, and I wanna say this carefully because I gotta be careful I don't walk around, because I'm a walker.

Now I'm on, now stay right here, this is my world. Okay, yeah, so we talked about grace, and you've got to be careful how you ask this question, but is grace needed in the eternity future? So in the age to come, the new heavens, the new earth, when we're present with the Lord, is grace necessary moving on into the ages to come?

Is it... Yeah, I'll start there. It's a big question, and I've got three more left in baptism, but this is something that came up last week, and I want to make sure that we have an opportunity to discuss it. JD, that question really took me back 15 years to when you were teaching the framework up here.

I know at that time we talked about, you know, grace before judgment. That hasn't left my mind yet. Grace before judgment. And for some people, you know, grace is extended to a point and then judgment. For others of us, you know, grace, we receive that grace and the effects of that grace at least go on into eternity. Yep. Yeah. God is gracious. He's not only gracious, but he's also just. And his judgment and his grace work in hand.

So what we talked about last week is the period of eternity past. Past is a little bit of a misleading term, because we're talking about eternity. But prior to the created age, the angelic realm, the earth, and then the population of the earth with the creatures, the four-footed animals, the birds, and then eventually mankind, was grace necessary? Was it needed in the eternity past, and is it needed in the eternity future?

What do we say grace is? Let's talk about the definition real quick. What's the Macaulay Grace? Not J.D. Macaulay, but Chester Macaulay, the other one. The wiser one. What does he say? Grace is the unmerited and unlimited blessings of God based upon the totally adequate work of Christ. All right. So we have that definition that we've been using for some time. Unlimited, unmerited favor. Okay?

In 2 Peter 3.18, it says, but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, to Him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. What does that have to do with this question?

But grow in the grace and the knowledge of our Lord and Savior, to Him be the glory both now, so what is given to the Lord for both now and eternity? Glory. God is glorified through his grace, is what this is saying. Grow in the grace and the knowledge. Do you think you're gonna be done the moment you're face-to-face with him? You're gonna be done learning about the grace and the knowledge?

No. No? Okay. So, Miles Stanford says, grace, once bestowed, is not withdrawn. Do we agree with that? Yes. Yes. For God knew all the human exigencies, beforehand. His action was independent of them, not dependent upon them." What is that? Do we agree with Miles on that? Yeah. Why? Because grace has nothing to do with the object of grace.

It has everything to do with the one given it. Say that one more time and say it a little louder if you don't mind. Make sure you're heard. Yeah, I want to hear you. Grace has nothing to do with the object of the grace. It has everything to do with the one who gives it. That's right. So we're saying that God did not need to create anything in order to be gracious. Is that true? That's true. He didn't need to do that to be loving. He didn't need to do that to be righteous or anything that he is. That's right. So if there's nothing, I keep wanting to say contingent, the word is exigencies, anything that requires him to behave a certain way, and in this case we're talking about grace, it's not something that applies as a creator.

He also said, Miles said, to taste of the grace of God is one thing, to be established in it and manifest it in character, habit and regular life is another. So we think about grace as it relates to our walk. But does grace end the moment our walk is complete and we're complete in terms of its conformity, its transformity, and so forth? Is grace done? No, it can't be, because that's his essence, his nature. That's his essence. Good point.

Someone grab Ephesians 2, chapter 2, verse 4. We're going to read 4 through 9. I've always viewed grace kind of... Not always viewed it, but most of the time thought about it as a, not as an element in a jar somewhere. Right. A magical. Yeah. It's a potion or something like that. It's, it's a whole environment that we live in. The name of it is grace. That's right. It's like the air you breathe. Absolutely. Yep. Ephesians chapter two, verse four through nine. Someone read that for us.

But God, being rich in mercy because of his great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ, by grace you have been saved, and raised us up with him and seated us with him in heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come he might show the surpassing riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith, And that not of yourselves is the gift of God, not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. So what does verse 7 say? So that in the ages to come, he might show the surpassing riches of his grace in kindness towards us in Christ Jesus.

What are you thinking back there, Courtney? Is that just... Seeing us that reveals his grace or does that mean grace extends through that? You know, it's showing it because we're there, we're there saved by grace. Is that, we are gonna be the example of his grace or is this saying it's grace throughout that whole period?

I have another question too when we get to last week. Maybe this is relevant at this point. I still, I'm trying to figure it out, you know, that we had grace prior to Christ, that grace was there. And I keep thinking about how in Galatians, you can't mix law and grace. I'm very emphatic about that.

How did grace and law mix prior to Christ? Did it change that law and grace could abide together? Where was there grace in the law? There wasn't, there was no grace. And that's why I say that Galatians says, if you catch law, you negate grace. So prior to Christ, it was law. So did grace and law abide together at that point? Could they coexist at that point? And things changed when Christ came, that now law and grace cannot mix.

Yeah. So let's add a few thoughts to this discussion. Is God 100% consistently loving? as an attribute, in his essence, as Cheryl said. In his essence. So, is God 100% gracious in his essence? Yes. Yes. And is this terminology? Yes. This becomes a semantic problem. That's what I'm saying. We have to be careful here. That's what I was saying.

Was it mercy and love demonstrated prior to Christ? Grace. Because I looked at Romans 8. excuse me, Romans 5, you know, the law in 20, law came in so that transgression would increase, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness through eternal life through Jesus Christ. So grace came in through Christ, is what, you know, in our, this period. And then the second question, which you're asking, does it extend through eternity? Yes, absolutely. Go ahead, Mike. The problem with the law and grace question, I think, is the fact that the law required compliance. Right. Strict compliance.

However, the way that God set up the Mosaic system was that he always had a methodology in place where, and it's called faith, that if you were a person of faith, then he would count you righteous, But he wouldn't count you righteous if you were obedient to the law.

And that shows that he's a gracious God. Because if I could comply with the law system, there's no chance of that happening. But if I could, I would be righteous in myself. What God offers through faith is that I will give you my righteousness if you believe me. Right. And he did offer that in the Old Testament. He sure did. But it was temporary and it was pointing to... So let's do this. I want to come back to Miles. You mentioned grace before judgment. So let's talk about when we say dispensations, I think one of the better way to say it is like the household rule.

You've got kids that grow up and you have rules in your house for toddlers, right? You cover the corners with the little rubber things to keep them from bumping their noggins and you childproof all your cabinets and you have rules. But as they get older, that stuff comes down and the household rules change.

It's very clear that God has household rule throughout time, right? And we move from various ages into the age of law, age of innocence, age of so forth. And we move into the law, does God's household rules change him? Or does he change his household rules? He doesn't change. He does not change, but the way he manages his creation does change with regards to those household rules or principles or laws, depending upon how we refer to him and which age. So how he's dealing with us in the body of Christ is unique. It's different than the household rules. It's like you were toddlers and now you're teenagers, so to speak. The rules are different. But it's not just like running a house. Like you said, it's not just rules that come from like a parent.

It's the environment. It's everything in the house. It's the head of the house. Right? It's the Lord himself. And so when we're talking about his character being manifest in a certain way during different household roles, that changes at the moment of Pentecost for the body of Christ. That changed for us. Okay? And so when we look, we take grace and we say, how do we view grace in these different households?

One thing that we do see about God's character is what Miles mentioned, is that there is always grace before judgment. That's his nature. Now, did he judge prior to the fall of man? Judge prior to the fall. Did God judge prior to the fall of man? He judged Satan.

Okay, and not only Satan. All the fallen. All the fallen and yeah, so we do see judgment happening between the creator and the creature. Go ahead. You're assuming that Satan was created before the day of creation. You're assuming that he's lived or been in existence for eternity. So I'm not. All I said was, did he judge before he judged man? Yeah, he was created the same day the earth was created. Because when you look at Ezekiel, he's in the garden, and he hasn't fallen yet. But he fell before Adam, correct?

Yeah, he did. Okay, so that's where we're at. So, was there grace before judgment, before Satan? There was. Yeah. There absolutely was. Had Satan not determined to be God himself, he would have been in the presence of the the creator, right? So... What's that? I said it didn't take him long, did it? No, it did not. It did not take him long, and it didn't take Adam long either. How do you know that? We don't know. Yeah, we don't know for sure the amount of time there.

But the point is, there is grace before judgment, so that characteristic of how he manages his creation is intact from the beginning all the way to the end, right? Is judgment necessary in an eternity future? Will there be judgment? No. For us? We're judging you. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I got some yeahs. So go ahead, tell us why. Well, we're talking about for unbelievers, those who have rejected His grace. Okay, that's right.

So after the great white throne judgment, everybody's assorted in terms of their faith, right? Is there any more judgment? Is there an environment of any discussion of justice? They're judged and the punishment is forever. It's ongoing for them. It's ongoing for them. So the fact that there is hell, and hell is a managed destination for those that chose to be there, there is ongoing judgment. But it's not in the presence of the Lord, right? It's not where we are. So the household rule of grace changes for us. If this analogy breaks down, I apologize. But it's one that I was talking about with Les and Addy yesterday. I remember I got a ticket to my first NFL football games, Dallas Cowboys versus the Oakland Raiders. It was LA Raiders, I guess, at the time. But Bo Jackson was there. He's my favorite player, running back.

And I had this ticket. And I thought this was the first time I'd ever traveled out of Lubbock to Dallas, for the most part. And so anyway, getting into this game was awesome. So I had the ticket, had been given the gift, I had the ticket, I went in and I was enamored with the entire presence of all these football players and all these people and all the sound and all that kind of stuff. And I remember taking my ticket, folding it up and putting it in my pocket, I was like, I've got to keep this thing. This is like the most special thing. Well, the game just played out really awesome. And it was one of those kinds of experiences that you have as a kid and you just are blown away. But I took that souvenir and I used it as a reminder of how fun I had. how much fun it was and what a wonderful experience it was.

And when I think about this in a little bit, it's kind of like, you know, by faith we're given the gift of salvation. That's what we just talked about in Ephesians chapter four, or chapter two. So we're given this ticket, but it's like we walk into the presence of the Lord as the body of Christ in the household rule of eternity future, and You think, oh, okay, that salvation thing was really awesome. I remember getting that ticket, but what about these streets of gold? My goodness, let's go check out all the new digs that we have for eternity. This is gonna be awesome.

And all of a sudden, you're thinking about the stadium, and you forget about the fact that you had that ticket that you were given to get in there in the first place. But what this talks about a lot is that you go back and you celebrate the fact that you were given that free ticket to get in there in the first place. It's not just about experiencing it, it's about experiencing the one who got you there. And you'll never forget the grace that was extended to you for salvation that got you there. That's what this ongrowing factor of grace has to do with our learning about him, growing in the grace and the knowledge, not only in this period of time, which is a heavenly citizenship, mind you, It's not some like earthly temporary thing where you can't learn about heavenly grace and what that's like because you are identified with it now. We're gonna talk about that in baptism. Baptism does get reversed. You're in already. You're not walking into the streets of gold fully. I get it. Your body is preventing you from that. But spiritually speaking, you are there.

And that household rule of grace is the household rule of grace. for us, because we're, as a heavenly people, that's the rule. That's how it works, how it functions. What does it cause us to do? Worship Him. Because it communicates His glory to us. And that's gonna be the focus of eternity. Thoughts? See, you still, like, doing through some thoughts. One thought is that, the example you use is a really good one, but we don't stay in the same house. That's true.

We do get a new stadium, right? They did that. The Cowboys did that. They bust down the stadium. No, I'm just kidding. But you get into the home of grace. That's right. In which the whole environment is grace. Well, you don't have your sin nature. Now you have grace without the sin nature. And that's what you get to experience in the body of Christ.

So, I do think that because grace is His essence, Grace is expressed in different ways throughout the household role of the Lord in his creation. He manages that household differently. And it's important, if we just see it as one constant stream, you miss the point of how God has created and how he functions to teach man about himself. But whether it be Abraham or whether it be us, we all come to the Lord in the same way, by grace, through faith.

The other thought I have is that In the Old Testament, under the law system, still God had not necessarily laws that you, statutes that you had to obey in order to get blessing, and if you didn't obey Him, you were cursed. In both grace environment and law environment, He has principles that He operates by, and you have to distinguish, I think, the difference in your mind between what a principle is and what a law is.

Very important. Yeah. Under the umbrella of grace, there are principles that operate in grace. They operate the same way all the time. Right. And that's what we're learning. Yeah. We grow in grace. We're really learning, how does this work? Yep. How does grace work? Because we don't know anything about grace until you're saved. Right.

Judy, a couple of things too, just about, in John, and the word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we saw his glory. Glory is the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. Then we're gonna skip down in 17. For the law was given through Moses. And this is, I think, the key. Grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.

And if you don't think of grace, as a person, you're missing the point. And that's where grace plays such a huge factor for us because we won't have our sin nature causing us constant frustration and barking in our ear with regards to who Christ is and who we are in Him. That goes away. Do you believe that? Can you imagine that? That's what we're talking about in terms of what water baptism symbolizes, is this introduction into a place. Go ahead.

You know, last week I talked about 2 Corinthians 4.18, for the things that are seen are temporal.

The things that are not seen are eternal. So we live in an eternal, gracious environment, but we can't see it. You don't see it without faith. So you take God's Word and you believe Him, and you begin to see how it works. You begin to see Christ and His principles. And I think baptism was instituted to show us principle of what really goes on in an unseen world, which is eternity. That's right.

Let's look at the question number three and continue with that thought. It says, why are all baptisms up to the church not Christian baptism? Remember, we talked about baptism as an introduction to a place, right? So what was the introduction of Israel being baptized into Moses? What was that? What it did is it introduced them into a relationship, I think is a better way of saying it. What relationship were they entered into?

One with Moses as their head, and the law was their governing rule. It was given to Moses by God, so Yahweh provided the standard. There was grace before judgment, even with the law. The fact that you could perform the law and not be put to death was grace in and of itself. Because what could he have done? He could have just instantly annihilated them and been totally just in doing so. But he didn't. And that's it.

That's grace before judgment as well, but nonetheless they were Moses I'm sorry Israel was baptized into Moses introduced into a place of the law So what happens when when Jesus is born? He lives his 33 some odd lives years of life and he's then put to death buried and resurrected Pentecost happens and Between Pentecost and Christ being born, where do we see baptism in that period? So birth and death. Where is baptism between that period of time in this? Where do we see it? John the Baptist, right? So John the Baptist comes on the scene, and what does he baptize into? What's the relationship that he is baptizing these now disciples into? discipleship. Yeah, it's called a baptism of repentance. Repentance is a change of mind.

Right. And the change of mind has to do, I think, with the difference between what Judaism had evolved to over 400 years and what it really was, which is what John the Baptist was preaching. Yeah. So here you have the Messiah. Go ahead. I was going to say, would you say that baptism to repentance is a change for them at that time was a change of mind back to the law? If that makes sense. Does that make sense? I mean, because they were calling Israel back to the law. Yes. Because obedience to law was necessary for the king, right?

Yeah, he was, but he also recognized, he also recognized at the same time that the Lamb of God was here. Right. He knew he was here and, you know, he knew he didn't know everything that was coming, but what was promised in grace in the garden. was now here and was going to take place. Somehow the disciples, at the stage in time that they were, were both immersed in the law, but immersed in the desire to follow what they believed to be the Messiah, who they believed to be the Messiah. So they have the law, and then they have this conflicting truth in their mind of this is the one that fulfills the law. This is the one that satisfies the law.

I don't know how that works. Surely he's not going to die. But somehow this is all going to work out because he is God. And they equated the Lord Jesus eventually as the Messiah, Jesus Christ, the anointed one. And so they were seeing the fulfillment of...

Go ahead. Well, did you have something? Sorry. Yeah, I was just, yeah, no, I didn't mean to interrupt, but it was just going to say, we've been studying the covenants in our Bible study to learn, you know, the difference between law and grace and, and, You know, what John said, you know, is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.

And I think what I've been recognizing is the law was designed to, you know, cause them to realize their need for grace, that their sin would be taken away and entered into the new covenant. But they had to recognize the law was still, for Israel, the law is still what grace will enable them. when the law is written on their hearts, to fulfill the law. That's always been their program. And so John was pointing them towards their need for grace, but they also had to, and Jesus, through his ministry, kept teaching clearly the law and how severe it was, which was, I think, all designed to point them to how important the law was for them, but how necessary grace was for them. to keep it, which is something totally different than what we're under, but anyway. What was the pinnacle of keeping the law? What was the one thing that represented that kind of temporary atonement for a certain amount of time? What was it that they engaged in? Sacrificial system, right? So moving through the tabernacle on to the temple are these disciples are John the Baptist Jesus are they still offering sacrifices at the temple?

On Passover at that point at that point. I think so. Yeah, they were sure They were. So even the sacrificial system is a picture of grace. Someone is dying in my place. In this case, it was an animal. And so it was temporary. And they knew that they were to do it because they knew that blood was required in order for sin to be covered. And in their case, it was temporary. But here they get, you know, it's kind of like being on the edge of something big.

Like this is the Messiah. Somehow this is all going to work itself out to the point where You know, we're going to follow Him and see what He has going on. But they didn't know everything. We talk about where the disciples were in their understanding over time. But they were baptized into discipleship. All they knew at that point in time was, I believe that this is the Messiah.

And I don't understand fully what's going to happen. I definitely don't understand that He's going to have to go to the cross and die. Why would He have to die? There will be a time where that was made sense. They were not baptized into salvation by grace, through faith, based on the totally adequate work of Christ. They were looking forward to it. So they followed Him. They took up their cross daily, right? They were in the badge of discipleship. That's what they were baptized into.

When it comes to water baptism for us, we're not baptized into discipleship. We're not told to pick up our cross and carry it daily in the sense of discipleship. What are we baptized into? We're baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. Looking back, right? So we have a head of the body, and we become united in the body, and that baptism is a picture of what happens spiritually.

Go ahead, Mike. Romans 6 says that, don't you realize that we were baptized and to Christ you were baptized into his death. So what's interesting is that even this event of the cross happened, but subsequent to that, if you believed in the person and work of Christ, the Spirit of God identified you with that very event on the cross, that you died too.

That's right. All that goes into the whole understanding of identification, death, prayer, and resurrection is a doctrine that just, well, when you first encounter it and 40 years later when you still read it, it just blows your mind that God would do such a thing. That's right. Yeah, I think that's interesting because You mentioned identity. So being joined to Christ in baptism, you're united to the church. You're not united to Moses. You're not united to discipleship looking for what the Messiah will do. You are united into Christ himself.

Okay? So we know that that's true. But being joined to the Lord, that's identification, guys. That's why this is so important. That's why Holly Hills talks about identification, because the Bible talks about it. And right here, you have identification. United with, identified with. Guess what? Your status has changed. J.B. Stoney talks about, suppose a man immigrates with a number of companions.

When he gets to the new country, he burns the ship to make sure that there should be no returning to the place they came from. This is literally the point in Colossians 2. The apostle first states, in him you have been made complete, in 2.10. And now he says, you must turn around and burn the ship.

You are circumcised with the circumcision of Christ, disposed of judicially on the cross. And now you are buried with him in baptism. Your status is gone. Yet I am a man, but according to Christ. Baptism has taken everything from me. That's interesting. Baptism has taken everything from me. I have no status. It has not brought me into anything, but it has cut me off from everything. Isn't that interesting? I was thinking about that.

The man is over, gone. And now I have reached another man, capital M, and this man is the son of the father and i have to walk through and i have to walk through this scene as a man who has made my heart acquainted with the love that is in the father's heart and to walk now not as the man who is gone but as a man who is uh... but as the man of god's counsels so i think it's really interesting to to to think about baptism this way you mentioned last week there's no going back how wonderful is that truth You can't go back on your identity.

You say, I gotta get unbaptized. You see anywhere in the scripture where there's a reverse of the death, burial, and resurrection? There's no reversal. This happens, and when you're united with Christ, your status changes from the old to the new. And guess what? Everything that we are is in Christ. That's our identity now. So this baptism is extremely important about what it pictures. There's a death, a burial, and a resurrection.

I was thinking, are you willing to burn the boat? Are you willing to burn the boat? That's the last question that I had. Because that's a scary thought. I've got to make sure I have a backup plan. Like the Jews, how are you at swimming? Yeah. I think that's the importance of Romans 6.

We've been crucified. Once you realize that, how do you go back? You don't go uncrucified. You can't climb back up. That's why I think so much of the identification truths are so important. There is no boat at that point. There is no swimming back there. There's no nothing. And that's what gives you the security. It's just that once you're dead, you're dead. You're an old man. And that crucifixion is so important. And that, again, is security. I can't go back. That's right. Go ahead, Miles.

I was going to say that the choice of the word baptizo by the Holy Spirit in Scripture is, you know, every use of it in the Greek is something so permanent, you know, dyeing fabric, hardening a sword. And actually, I came across the use of it in pickling cucumbers in the ancient Greek recipe. They use the word baptizo, and I was like, that's so... such a good picture. You put that pickle in, or that cucumber in the brine, you are never getting a cucumber back.

That's so true. I think what's interesting there is that the characteristic of the object changes in that case. It's no longer the same. The character changes. Whether it be the fabric and the dye or the sword, and the heat and the pounding, or whether it be a pickle and a cucumber. What if you like pickles? If you like pickles, you're in luck because you can get more pickles, you just can't go back to the cucumber. awesome let's break but how we thank you for the truth of baptism and thank you for uh... just uh... the church age and that we have the privilege of uh... uh... understanding through uh... the revelation of your word we can go back and understand not only the gospel message but what the result of baptism produces in this is the leaders being placed into body of christ and so i pray lord that we will continue to learn what that means in terms of our identity.

It's not something that we ever want to go back on. We can't go back on it. We are introduced into a new place eternally, and so we thank you for that. It brings about peace and rest, and we just are thankful that we'll continue to be able to grow in the grace and the knowledge of that on into eternity. It's in your name we pray. Amen.