Relationship of Wife, Husband and Children

What we're reminded of here is Paul, in his epistles, always builds a foundation of position first, right? And now we're seeing this transition in Colossians into the more, you know, it's not what we do, it's who we are. And so, therefore, what we do is evidence of who we are. So this is the application that Paul is bringing forth, which will really be carried through the rest of the epistle of the Colossians. So we've been built up and founded in the Lord Jesus Christ.

And just to make sure we're starting at the right place, we're going to read verse 12 down through 21. Who would like to read loudly so we can all hear? And if not, I will. Margaret, okay please. Put on, therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, vows of mercies, kindness, humbleness, of mine meekness long-serving, forbearing for one another and forgiving one another. Any man have a quarrel against any.

Even as Christ forgave you, so also do you. And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness. And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body, and be ye thankful. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

Why, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord. Husbands, love your wives, and be not bitter against them. Children, obey your parents in all things, for this is well pleasing unto the Lord. Fathers, promote not your children to anger, lest they be discouraged. So I'm going to ask all the single women and men to leave the class at this point in time. Marilyn, you started to get up. Alright, so this is addressed to husbands and wives and how they care of themselves in terms of raising their children. So, wives submit to your husbands as is fitting in the Lord. So the issue before us is submit. And how do we interpret that?

I'm going to interpret it for you, but there's probably no more debated verb in Scripture. I'm just throwing that out. Just for starters, what did Christ do to his Father? What was his relationship to his Father? Alright, we're good. So you're reading the second part of this verse, aren't you?

The pastor wants to ignore the first part. That's because Rogers doesn't have the handout in front of him. So if our Savior, who is God, subjected himself to the Father and says, I do nothing except what I see the Father doing, how much more should the wise, you know, if we see our heavenly It's not about husband and wife being equal in the Lord.

So that's not the issue. The issue is one of order. God is God of order. Well, to further that a little bit, Christ and the Heavenly Father are three in one, right? So there's no separation positionally, except for this short time where he became flesh.

Other thoughts on this submission? Well, let's further this because I think this is going to build up as we go forward. Let's not, and I think Roger alluded to this, let's not ignore the second part of this verse, this fitting in the Lord. Is the world system under this kind of call to obedience? When I say obedience, we're not talking about law, we're talking about grace. Remember, obedience, when we tie it into the concept of grace, is ultimately the obedience to the faith. The grace is the foundation. When we're obedient, we're obedient to the faith, not to legal systems. Alright, so let's not ignore that. Indicative case, that means it's a fact.

And what is fit in the Lord? Well, is fit is imperfect. And so some people interpret this better as was fit with a continuing application is probably better. So was fit is probably better. It's there and it's imperfect. It's continuing on into the future.

So we look back at the Lord Jesus Christ, His fitting of the Lord, His relationship to His Father. Roger brings that up very nicely. simply a moral obligation? What are your thoughts on that? Tom, you have a thought. Think about what Christ is doing, not just from the Pharisees, and not just from his own people, and even his own, if you could call them kin, growing up.

Ultimately, the whole weight of sin on him. And knowing what he was going to face at the time of the crucifixion, sweating drops looked like blood, or it came out like blood globules, it wasn't really made clear. It was not simply a moral obligation. He was laying his life down according to the will of him, the Holy Spirit, and the Father. but it was still 100% human dealing with it, as well as 100% being. And it was tough to do, but he said, nevertheless, not by will, but her be done, hers be done.

Okay, so how's that placed in context, what it means for wives to submit themselves to their husbands? They become disagreeable moments of disagreement. And yes, It's all of grace if they both follow through on how grace really works. Whether she chooses to rank underneath her husband according to scripture or according to her power. I'd say according to scripture the best. That's the truth fitting part of the Lord. She doesn't do it in her own strength because she knows it's her only limited strength as human.

Alright, I mean, I think Phil and Sue Ellen experienced this with Margaret and I and a few other people from the body who were at an event on Friday night, a ministry called Thrive. We had a woman who was really put under tremendous persecution in Afghanistan and repeatedly put in a position of potentially questioning whether her life would continue. And she envisioned an experience where the cup you mentioned was put before her. And although her husband was intending on remaining there, she thought that she and the children should return to the U.S. under tremendous strife. If I interpret her correctly, this cup was the cross and everything that the Lord Jesus Christ saw in the cross. Peter was there too. She didn't understand this maybe, but I certainly got the interpretation that this cup seemed The Lord Jesus Christ and what he accomplished in taking the cup changed her life to accept her role in Afghanistan in peace and comfort despite the circumstances. Is that a fair paraphrase of what she went through? So it's kind of like she became, you know, if you will, grace prevailed and suddenly circumstances didn't make any difference anymore.

So in a sense marriage is that way but we're going to come back to what happens if you know or what about this or that. I mean I think these are the issues we're not so sure about. The Greek is submit yourselves and the tense here is imperative. That means women who are wives of husbands and that's not conditional. I mean although we sure think it should be and me being a husband thinks you know I don't deserve it most of the time but nevertheless It's do it.

This is scripture. This isn't some kind of colloquial interpretation of a conditional relationship. Gail? Is it basically a recognition of the chain of command? About what? A recognition of the chain of command. Okay. Well, chain of command is one way to look at it. I really like what Roger said in terms of Christ and his relationship with his heavenly father. I think that's another good way to look at it.

So similar terms in the fair Greek interpretation of the Greek term is a range under. So being obedient to a range of other, I kind of like that interpretation. Subordinate sounds a little bit legal, but obey, which is of course, that's what the verse says. Subject oneself and submit oneself, yield to. I mean, there's all kind of ways you can interpret this, and depending on which one of these verbs you use, you could maybe come away with a different conclusion.

Constable, I like this. This subjection rests on divinely prescribed authority. not on any inherent inferiority in spirituality, intelligence, worth, or anything else. Let's read that again. This subjection rests on divinely prescribed authority, not on any inherent inferiority, important, women, wives, in spirituality, intelligence, worth, or anything else. Thoughts on that?

I think it's entirely possible that because of the circumstances and the needs there have been instances in this Remainder situation where PHDs ended up being drafted as privates instead of the officers they should have been and dealing with the chain of command in that way is really eating crow but having to do it nevertheless. Many PHDs are driving Uber these days.

Galatians 2.18 is a verse worth thinking about here. And the Lord God said, it's not good that man should be alone, I will make him a helper comparable to him.

Well Bob, I was thinking that actually, the wives take this possibly as a negative, but really it's a positive for the husband, because it's to, I don't want to say force the husband, but it's to make him aware But the wife is going to look to you. She's going to look to you to be the one. And she'll look to you. And that's why the Lord has an order in his universe. He has an order. He doesn't say you get together and decide, necessarily. And you are to decide together. But there is an order. And this is his order. And we can quibble with that. But it's interesting that we're going to get on to the next verse. focuses on being in submission.

The husbands are focused on love. He doesn't say wives love your husbands. He tells the husband love their wives. So there's different issues for each part. In God's order he understands the role of the man and the woman and what they need and what the focus should be. But what is her expectation? What is she looking for in her husband, scripturally? To be a spiritual leader. That's where a lot of the problem comes in, in our world. The husbands are not spiritual leaders.

The wives will just step up and take over. I'll never forget this. My late wife Sharon was saved. 1977 and I saw a woman change and a year later I came to the Lord. But anyway, all that aside, suddenly the spiritual leadership that she assumed in the family Peter wasn't born yet. We were still in Seattle at that time.

She said, Bob, you've got to get your act together. I'm paraphrasing. Get your act together. You've got some responsibilities here. Through God's great grace over time, on a one to ten scale, I got to one and a half or something. The idea, I think, of a wife in the Lord who's married to a husband in the Lord has expectations for his spiritual leadership. Now that's kind of reading between the lines a little bit, that she's respecting him for who he is spiritually. We'll come back to that in a second. Macaulay, her obligation is to him, but her motivation is from the Lord. This harmonizes perfectly with the concept of grace. Isn't that true?

Titus 2.5, to be discreet, chaste, homemakers, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be blasphemed. What about women who work outside the home? Is that a contradiction to this verse?

I'm sure the lady who she happened to be married with, a rich lady who was from Lydia, who was going to help Paul out, didn't try to overlook anything if she happened to be married at the time. It wasn't mentioned in the scripture. Now there's nothing said here that a woman can't work outside the home, but it says a homemaker I mean, she's got dual responsibilities.

I mean, look at Peter's sister, Kristen, who has got a big full-time job and is raising three children. She's got a supportive husband. And I think they're getting the job done. But it's a complicated life. A complicated life. So anyway, so here's my thought. And I honestly think that overall, this verse relates to the next verse. And I think Roger really set the stage for that. And he doesn't have a handout. Her husband's responsibility. And Margaret hit the nail on the head. It's his spiritual leadership. That's where that respect comes from. But unfortunately for you, wives, this is not conditional. Now, what if a husband's beating the wife or is unfaithful?

I mean, there are all kinds of circumstances we could come up. We're not going to be talking about the what-ifs here. I mean I think the Lord will take a woman to the path she needs to face if in fact circumstances become so dishonorable or ungodly that she must make some decisions. We're not reading between the lines here. I was going to say that in an ungodly relationship the Lord doesn't want you in that relationship. I just don't believe that. I think this is talking about a person who's in the Lord, where the husband is in the Lord. And outside of that, I think the rules are a little different. I just do.

What about a woman married to an unsaved man? He's sanctified, from the epistles to Peter, I think the first epistle, sanctified by that relationship, because she's saved, but he's not. The children's mother went a year without me coming to the Lord. And by the way, just FYI, 50 years yesterday I was married to her. Back to this though. So he's sanctified by her.

Yes, Patty? subjection to your own husbands that if any obey not the word that they also may without the word be won by the conversation. That was my personal experience actually. You can testify to that. That behavior of your wife, you were unsaved and she was saved. This is a woman I dated for seven years through junior high school, high school, and college before I married her.

We knew each other pretty well. Things weren't going well raising children. Not that they went perfectly thereafter. Peter, you can leave the classroom right now. Her dad said to us, you guys have got to get your act together. I mean, it's your mood that reflects your parenting. And boy, aren't we all kind of, as parents, kind of guilty of that?

When we're peaceful and calm, we let things go and everything, but then when we're short-tempered, you know, I mean, that's the flesh, isn't it? We all have it. But anyway, that's when she went to Bible Study Fellowship and got saved studying the Gospel of John. And a year later, after seeing her grow and kind of change, it got my attention. So that sanctification, Patty, is really what Peter's talking about there. All right, let's go ahead.

Husbands, love your wives and do not be bitter towards them. And Roger said, the wife doesn't have to love the husband. You kind of wonder about that, too. And of course, what's love here? I mean, love is agape. We're going to turn to that. Hey, hubbies, what kind of love is this, right? So again, we've been over this many times at this church over years and years. So what kind of love is agape love? Yeah, we got kind of a quiet group on this side today. Most of it is coming from over here, except for Margaret that is.

Yeah, this is kind of a love that doesn't depend on circumstances. We all fall short of this, but I think, again, I think if we think about where Paul takes us from the beginning of his epistles to where we're at in terms of application, it's our position of truth by that great and extending grace that by faith we say Circumstances grow us in grace and ultimately that agape love is circumstantial but yet applied grace in terms of that relationship. This is not eros or philia, other Greek terms for love. Philia is just kind of a warmth and kind of a relationship kind of thing. Eros is more sexually directed. Whatever, this is a present active imperative. Do it and keep on doing it. So you guys who have wives, we've got a responsibility here.

And how is this manifested? Let's put rubber to the road here. You husbands in the room. How is this manifested? Maybe we should ask the wives how this is manifested or not manifested. Again, we may need to go in a separate room privately and discuss it. Answer. Somebody answer. How is this manifested? Guys, wives, how is this agape love manifested? Well, it's got to be not I, but Christ. Alright. Because the last part kind of brings up an issue. An issue may crop up. We may have some issues. So the first part says, love your wives. So maybe there's some other issue between you that might cause you to have some problem.

Okay, so what we're looking at is spiritual grounding, aren't we? And here's where grace becomes so incredibly important because, you know, if Margaret falls short, which she almost never does, I mean, of course, she would have never mind. So anyway, I mean, this has to be something where I think, you know, you're willing to really accept people for who they are. And we all know that we both have identification and we're positioned. but we have conditions that at times are influenced by our fleshly existence or that sin nature. So we have to be understanding. I think we have a great marriage because if we fall short of one another we quickly forgive and move on. It's a really nice thing and that's an important thing in a good marriage I think.

The comparison makes is that as Christ loved the church, well look at the church today. Does that change his love? No. And look at the church too and its existence, right? So that's an example right there of what that love is. Right, and Ephesians talks more about that than Colossians. It's a kind of parallel text that I haven't gone back to Ephesians so much, but it does say Christ loved the church.

Alright, why is being bitter, which can also be interpreted as indignant or angry, why is this in the passive tense? It's your choice for it to happen, and if you take it on, it's going to happen. Okay. Reminds me of Quart's motto, it's to be offended is your choice, right? I mean, but yet that seems more proactive. Other thoughts about why bitter is it in the passive tense? And be not bitter against them. It would seem like it would be more open to have it react.

Right. But it's passive. No wisdom here on that one? Patty? Maybe it's when you're not working at your... I don't know. Maybe it's what? It just kind of works into your... you just kind of let things build up maybe. I don't know. And then that passively makes you become angry I guess.

Well, passive relates to the fact that I think the bitterness is kind of a welcome to life, right? I mean, and ultimately the bitterness really is an appropriate response by which nature? I mean, there's every reason in the world why we would be bitter in our marital relationships at times, or angry, or indignant, but yet The way we receive that ultimately relates to another life. I think that's why there's all kind of bitterness that's possible day in and day out.

You have disagreements, you have arguments and things aren't going well. That's kind of the world system around us and in marriage I think it can have an incredibly negative impact. Bitterness is something you carry with you and that's not of the Lord. No bitterness in the new nature. So this bitterness really is kind of the world system in terms of relationships. And I think it's passive because it's all around us and it can ingrain us.

But when we're living by grace and truth, in fact, this shouldn't and doesn't happen. Don't you think bitterness in this context is sort of like when things happen and you're holding a grudge and you hold it forever, you know, and you let it just melt and eat at you. That's what I kind of think of that meaning. Yeah, you know, parallel verses in Ephesians.

Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you with all malice. I mean, again, how do we put that stuff away? It's not you that's doing it. Yeah, okay. This new life that shows up. Again, remember, Paul's positional first before he works through our conditional experiences. How might this be manifested? We kind of just talked about that a bit. Any other thoughts here?

Barclay, in context, both under Jewish and under Greek laws and customs, all the privileges belong to the husband and all the duties to the wife. Think about kind of populations of the world where we would talk about Mormonism on the way and Margaret just read a book that reflected that kind of atmosphere there.

But here in Christianity we have for the first time an ethic of mutual and reciprocal obligation. So what are the obligations? Men are spiritual leaders and love their wives unconditionally. And that really makes it easier for the woman to submit herself in whatever ways we're talking about, all the possible ways to her husband. Other thoughts?

I ended up being the guardian and conservator of my parents when they were pregnant. There came an instance when my mom ran a nursing home and they had separate beds. It came to the point where my dad just simply called me over and said, I'd like to touch my wife if you don't mind. Could we have the beds bolted together? They were on roller beds like the kind you find in the hospital. With climbing and raising the heads of the beds so you could stay in bed for whatever reason you could still be comfortable like in the chair. And so I told the person in charge at the nursing station it would be very helpful, almost including from mom and dad, to be together in their one bed. We could rope the two beds together and just cooperate. That's an application I wouldn't have thought of, but nevertheless, it's good.

Okay, we're going to leave marriage here. Well, we're not going to leave it entirely. We're leaving another responsibility of marriage. Any other thoughts here about submission by the wives and unequivocal love by the husbands? And why does this fail so much, even the body of Christ? Why do we fall... Well, you put this under legalism, then it became, you know, why submit? The word submit just became... It's a negative term, isn't it? As you mentioned, in a lot of other religions, look at not only Mormonism, but look at the Muslim religion. Islam, faith, and Hindu. Boy, you can name it.

Even in the Jewish tradition, as Barclay has said here, the woman was subservient in a whole different kind of way. Things have changed. Things have changed in the world system around us, haven't they? I mean, look at what's happened over the last 50 years in terms of women in the workplace and women bargaining constantly for equal salaries for the equal amount of work. I don't disagree with that. I mean, if a woman is working at the same job as a guy, they're going to be paid equal. I mean, there are things in the world system that kind of reflect this minimally, but this goes a lot deeper. than, in fact, what the world system is going to do legally through the workplace and beyond in terms of this relationship. Of course, the workplace is not men and wives. I mean, we're talking about here marriage.

All right, class is quiet. Let's move on. All right. Children, obey your parents in all things. Peter, are you taking notes here? Maybe you and Phil can leave the room and go outside. Obey your parents in all things for it is well pleasing to the Lord. Alright, like it or not kids, obedience or obeying again is present active imperative. That means do it. Now, you know, this is, I'm going to pause here just for a second. And by the way, let me go ahead.

Children's techna here, these are youth, these are not infants and toddlers. And that reminds me of kind of a principle that Sharon and I and Margaret and I had raising the Eccle children. You know, we have five children, so where love becomes grace happens differently in each life. Think about infants, toddlers, even small children are under law. There's not much grace there. We've got a puppy. We're trying to keep her under law right now. There's not much grace going on there.

The purpose of being good parents is realizing where that transition takes place. That's very different from child to child. You parents in the room, you know what we're talking about here. This is in part because the alternative, meaning not obeying, has some consequences, doesn't it?

Again, youth now. How would we define youth, do you think, scripturally? Where would we not be a small child, a toddler, or an infant? What age is that, Tom? Well, it could be any age. It has more to do with the spiritual age, being able to handle the scriptures and understand who is the source and how it works and how grace is.

Again, that's a transition from law to grace, and that's different for each child, I think. And you know, many Christian homes, and I'm not being critical, because you learn this the hard way, many Christian homes remain in a legal atmosphere for some time, and I think that's where this transition from being a youth into adulthood becomes problematic. We all make mistakes as parents, we have, looking back. But it seems like you find that obeying your parents, You need to start when you are pretty young. You do.

But the thing is when we put spiritual roots to obedience for the children, what does that look like that may be different than a non-Christian home? Why should a child obey his or her parents? Because God said they should. his creation and he had the opportunity to explain a lot of cool things to your kids and that's why in our family we have this order in our family that God has in his universe. You know the engineer and Roger shows up a lot this order thing you know.

It's a good point. Are we having fun here, Andrew? Maybe you're not. I'm having kind of fun. All right, let's go ahead. Let's look at some scripture here. Romans 1, 28, and I'll skip through 29 to 30. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, Talk about the, boy, Romans 1 is a good place to realize the world system around us, isn't it? God gave them over to a debased mind to do those things which are not fitting. I'm not going to 29, there's lots of things listed there.

Backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, and disobedient to parents. ringing the bell there, Tom. Good. All right. Second Timothy three, two, for men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful. I mean, this is all the natural consequences of being unsafe. Yes.

Well, Bob, it seems like, you know, if you look around at this observation of getting older, if you look at young families today and society in general, my take on looking at families is that the kids aren't taught to obey. The kids are just out of control. In public places, my parents are never allowed to leave our kids to just be out of control. But what is that a consequence of?

Where's God in our society today? Church attendance is one thing. That could be legally interpreted. I mean, many times it is. But why do we come on Sunday? We come to know what God has to tell us in this great atmosphere of grace that we live under. So, you know, without God, and Margaret and I were talking about this on the way in this morning, honey, what were we talking about? Well, what I was noticing, you know, we're driving in and all these young families are bike riding, they're out running, they're out, and there's nothing wrong with all those things. We love exercise. We do it.

But what you notice is these people are not going to church. Their children are growing up in a godless environment. Now I know that's a general statement, but I think They're growing up in a godless community, a godless world. Their parents don't go to church. Their parents may or may not believe anything. And their children certainly aren't. So we have this whole generation of young people who don't know how to raise children. And I think that's a consequence, Roger, of what we're seeing with middle school suicides. And, I mean, children don't feel worth of any work.

I mean... And those are broad general statements. Obviously, they don't apply in every circumstance. So what seems to be the problem here? And I think the problem is the world system surrounds them. And the world system is becoming much more liberal, much more lenient. And for some kids growing up in non-Christian homes, they do well anyway. I mean, the point is we can't overly generalize this.

But I think for the believer, there is a responsibility for children to obey their parents. And we as parents grow in grace. I mean, looking back, having the privilege of having five children, you learned a lot of lessons along the way. And it's been really an experience that I thank the Lord for. Okay, and notice in all things. Why in all things? What's that mean? Well, because it's pleasing to the Lord, that's why. I mean, look at the verse in its entirety. Because it's pleasing to the Lord is why children should obey. Incredibly relevant.

And this is not a qualified statement. I mean, for the believer, the man and woman raising their children, it's pleasing the Lord to have your children learn to obey. Romans 12, 2, and do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God. But, here's one of these kind of conditions that I alluded to earlier in marriage. I mean, we can spend all year talking about what about this circumstance and what about that circumstance. Scripture is clear.

Children should be raised to obey their parents. And again, this transition from law to grace has to be individualized by the parent. So, what if the parents are abusive? And I point out here that this makes it difficult, but pleasing to the Lord is still the bottom line.

I think when we think about things being pleasing to the Lord, isn't there a tendency to put a legality to that? In the flesh. Yeah, and I think keep in mind, you know, as children who grow up in a home where parents are, you know, we're positioned, we're complete in the Lord Jesus Christ, we make mistakes along the way too.

I mean, there's no question about that. But ultimately, I think, again, back, I said this four times, but this transition from Lot of Grace is really important to understand as parents what we're doing here. Gail? Doesn't this apply to the child or the children? have an understanding of God and have a desire to please him? Absolutely.

What's happening in the non-Christian home then? I mean children are still taught to obey their parents. I think that's God's presence. in this global system, this universe we live in, I think children need to learn to obey, but they're not putting scriptural context to this. But I think, you know, but still, what allows children to come out of non-Christian homes and still have, you know, moral character and live a successful life? Isn't that the omnipresence of God? He's everywhere, all the time. Through creation and through conscience, there is a pervasive nature of God's presence in this world, even though people would deny it. It may be agnostic at best.

I think these scriptures we're looking at today bring so many more questions that I don't think God really wants us to ponder. He's telling us in an imperative sense, do these things. Men, love your wives. Women, submit or get along with or hang out appropriately with your husbands. Raise children to obey.

And here's the negative. Fathers, do not provoke your children unless they become discouraged. And boy, I think maybe a lot of this isolationism and depression and suicide in young people these days relate to this kind of an atmosphere. We live in a digital age. Kids can easily get separated from learning how to interact with adults and even peers at times. I'm kind of going on a rabbit trail here a little bit, but nevertheless.

Why not mothers too? Why is this to fathers? I think we kind of covered that, didn't we? Why isn't this to fathers and mothers? And who does a lot of discipline in the home and why is mom often so predominant in implementing discipline on her children? Because dad falls short. So back to this principle, I think the married Christian woman is looking for her husband to develop spiritual leadership and that's including teaching their children how to obey. Sometimes you can be overly harsh. At times I was too lenient. Looking back, you learn through mistakes.

I think mothers are left out for that reason. Any other thoughts about that? I mean they're involved. I think the Lord knows that mothers have a different relationship with their children. Because it's pretty rare for a mother to walk out of a home and leave virtually. It happens. It does happen, but it's pretty rare. It doesn't happen, but it's not uncommon for a father to just walk away and leave.

Leave mom and the kids. Mom and the kids. Yeah, I mean, anyway, I just think, I think the Lord knew that there was a different kind of a bond with the mother and the child. Other thoughts on that? Yeah, Wayne and then Tom. I think that children learn by example, and if the example is not set by the parents, either one of them. It's do as I say, not as I do. Well, that's not how they learn.

And just think if any of us would have been raised in India and were Hindus by birth and being raised a Hindu, would we ultimately have an opportunity? You really just don't understand how the Lord deals with that, but yet Christ is there for the entire world. Some never hear, that's what Thrive is all about, and some never pay attention.

Alright, what's this provoking look like? Every time I put provoking down here, because it's in the scripture, the spell check indicated that was not a word that was acceptable. I left it in there anyway. What's this provoking look like? Maybe constant criticism and not encouragement.

All right, I found you're on the right page. Tom, I'm sorry, you had a point earlier. No, no, no points. Yeah, okay. All right, and what are some possible consequences? I just went to Google and I'm not worried about being sued here, okay? How about that?

Internal anger, right? And just disgust. And then there's this. Just kind of sadness and depression and lack of self-worth. That's what this looks like and it could be manifested in a wide variety of additional ways. And what we're encouraged to do this for is to keep them from becoming discouraged. So what's to be discouraged? Well, to be disheartened. dispirited, broken in spirit, all these kinds of things. I'm thinking that children by and large in our society today are being raised without hope. and there is that one verse that says without God and without us in the world and I think that's where our children are and our society is descending more and more into that and that's one of the reasons for all of this increase in suicides but then you have a ministry like the one Ruth is in that spearheads their ministry at children and it can give them a grain of hope to go on even if they're not raised in a church which I wasn't. And the word of God when they learn to read is available to them then. And it can give them hope to go on.

So I would imagine a lot of children that she has the Lord have her deal with are children who do not come from homes that have a spiritual interest, right? The parents must agree to have these children participate though, right? Yeah. All right, but remember, I mean, most of us in this room remember going to school and having the Lord in the school. I mean, I remember having an afternoon session once a week to go to the Presbyterian Church next to the elementary school I went to.

So anyway, the world system is clearly not permissive here, but having children disheartened or dispirited or broken in spirit is an incredible problem of this age. Children, here's what Barnes said, children should not be flattered. But they should be encouraged. They should not be so praised. I think this was really neat. They should not be so praised as to make them vain and proud. But they should be commended when they do well. That's kind of a profound parenting message. Children should not be flattered but should be encouraged. should not be praised to make them vain and proud, but they should be commended when they do well.

I think that's a nice application. Let's look at a little scripture here. I'm going in the Old Testament a little bit here. Proverbs 3.12, For whom the Lord loves, he corrects, just as a father the son in whom he delights. Correction by Dad. Hear, my children, the instruction of a father, and give attention to no understanding. Notice, the instruction of a father.

First Thessalonians 2.11, as you know, how we exhorted and comforted and charged every one of you as a father does his own children. So this kind of responsibility for dads is kind of laced throughout scripture and I'm just giving you a few verses that turn to that.

And keep in mind, as adult heirs, the Lord's not finished with us either. Remember, we're children of a different sort, but in a similar vein. Hebrews 12, 5 and 6, and you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons. My son, do not despise the chasing of the Lord, nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by him. For whom the Lord loves, he chastens, and discourages every son whom he receives. And how about that for a role for a father, in terms of having that kind of relationship with your children.

Sons and daughters. I mean sons as broadly interpreted as children in general. So again, back to a point I brought up a few moments ago. So where are the mothers in all this relationship with child rearing? We've kind of turned to that in part. What are some other thoughts about where mom exists here? I get the feeling that mostly from my experiences as a growing up child that dad sets the rules and mom tells the kids what. Dad sets the rules and mom tells the kids why.

Do you have a chapter and verse for that one? It does underline the fact that fathers and mothers work together to help children. We all can reflect on our own mothers in terms of our own experience growing up, but I had no father. I may have a father, but he died before I was a year of age, and so my mother never remarried. So I had an older brother I looked up to a lot. But anyway, all that aside, moms step in when there's no male leadership or no male presence. It makes me kind of turn back to the garden a little bit, you know, when Adam let Eve down by letting her go ahead and pick the fruit. What's Adam doing? He's kind of ignoring what's going on with Eve, right? No spiritual leadership there.

And this is kind of his transition through decades and centuries and millennium going forward. Women have a desire to take that role if her husband's not getting the job done. I think that's just a principle we see played out in Christianity and clearly it happens also in the world system.

Roger gets easier after this and I'm not teaching next week. Any other thoughts about today's lesson? This is a tough area to cover because I think what I tend to do when I'm looking at this, I tend to get distracted thinking about what are all the exceptions to this.

We need to focus in what God has called us to because it's pleasing to Him to be good parents and take spiritual leadership for you men and be committed and respectful for your husbands. All right, let's close in prayer. Tom, you have a point you want to make first? Just to be quick, sometimes in the period of misbehavior, mom will snap her fingers and point at you, and then she won't behave the same from the corporal point of view as a kid. I think Peter can reflect on that one a little bit. If he sees wrong doing, he goes right in. And keep it to yourself, son, please. Alright, let's go.

Roy, would you close us in prayer, please? Our Heavenly Father, we thank you for the instruction that by your Spirit you give us in these words. As we look at these words, we are reminded that you are in charge of us. And it is under your leadership that we can learn and grow, become, and conform to your image. It's to that end we commit ourselves. Amen. Amen.