The measure of Christ Gift

The Ephesians, we're in chapter 4. All right, so let's read from 1 down through 10, which is where we're going to terminate today's lesson. And as usual, Roger seems to, I don't think this is a roll of the dice here. It depends largely on your schedule. You can blame your schedule. That's OK. I'll blame my schedule. All right, so let's read here. Let's see if I can read at the distance I'm existing with this pair of glasses and not my other ones.

I say that the heir, as long as he is a child, I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that you walk worthy of the vocation to which you are called. With all the lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, and forbearing one another in love, endeavoring to keep the unity of the spirit in the bound of grace. There is one body and one spirit even as you are called in one hope of your calling, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in you all. But unto every one of you is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. Wherefore he saith, when he ascended up on high, He led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men, now that he ascended, that he first descended into the lower parts of the earth. He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things. So important I think to read the first part of this before we look at 7-10. Alright, first verse, but to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ's gifts.

Now, this is beyond the oneness that we just spoke about. Somebody read 4-6 again, and let's look at this oneness. Roger, please. There is one body, one spirit, just as you also were called, in one hope of your calling, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. Okay, oneness is about all of us, but now look at this, beyond the oneness described in these verses, the personal touch is evidenced here. Talk about each person, each one of us. But to each one of us, grace.

What's grace? Tom knows it. Tom, what's grace? Unlimited, unmerited favor of God, based on the totally adequate work of Jesus. Get a gold star. This is good. Alright. Was given. Eris, passive indicative. Grace is something that we receive. It's factual. And although Eris relates in one point in time, it can relate to any tense, past, perfect, or present. Notice it has nothing to do with our wants or desires. Grace, we talked about this last night in Bible study, doesn't relate to us or what we want or desire.

In fact it is a principle of God for the believer. Endless. And there's a participle before grace, it's the grace. That's not in most translations but if you go back to the original script there is a the before grace, specifying the nature of this grace. It's God's specific grace. And it's conditional. It's according to the measure of Christ's gift. What do you make of that? Tom? As many as received him gave him the power to become the sons of God. But they have to receive him first. That's the condition. So your interpretation there is the global principle of grace and not specific.

Other thoughts on that? We got to see where Ephesians 4 is going here a little bit. So let's look at what Weiss says here and I think it brings up both positions. We must be careful to note that this grace has to do with the exercise of special gifts for service, not the grace for daily living. The former is limited and is adjusted to the kind of gift and to the extent to which the Holy Spirit desires to use that gift in the believer's service. The latter, is what Tom is alluding to, is unlimited and subject only to the limitations which the believer puts upon it by a lack of yieldedness to the Spirit.

Now my question to the class, do you agree with Weist here? Is this general or is this more specific? I disagreed with him initially, but as I looked at the text and continued, I was really thinking he's on the right page here. I would say many of the commentators were in favor of it being related to gifts.

So it's not the general principle of grace we're all under, which is our life. Our life is in response to God's grace by faith. Remember, we're saved by grace through faith. But this is more specifically related to individual gifts. that are unique and special and chosen to benefit God's glory. Let's continue with this. The manifestation of this gift is through the power of the Holy Spirit. But God's overall grace in our life is also not manifested by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Yes? Yes, good. Wake up everybody. Anybody got problems here? We've got a quiet class this morning. Is that a problem, Tom, or are you just showing your pencil? No, I'm just scabboning the sword so I can write down the extra notes. Alright, let's see if we can provide some more for you.

First Corinthians 12 for now, there are diversities of gifts but the same spirit. I mean, I think that principle is certainly something we need to heed. we all have different gifts, and by the way, I think we tend to, and this study is not about gifts, I mean we're going to get into other aspects, but I think this grace is really specified for each individual believer, and of course in Romans and 1st Corinthians we have all kinds of texts on gifts, and I'm not intending to go there today, but I think the idea here is related to this, and here's another reason, turn to chapter 4, which you're in, 11 and 12, so somebody read verses 11 and 12 please. He gave some apostles and some prophets and evangelists, some pastors and teachers, perfecting the saints for the work of the ministry for the edifying of the body of Christ. Okay, so that helps a little bit in understanding this grace that's individualized, what's going to follow. So sometimes, I'm guilty of this all the time, looking at just a set number of verses and not looking at the bigger picture. But I think 11 and 12 really does require some understanding in context is how it relates to what Paul is talking about here. Same spirit, diversity of gifts and we see in 11 and 12 how that's specified for each individual.

And by the way I think this is a bit tangential but If we look around the room or we look at the body of Christ, some people seem to be good at this and some people seem to be good at that. The gift is not necessarily what you're good at. It's how the Lord chooses to use you in the various circumstances that he places you in. I think when we look at our own gift and say, gee, that's God's gift, that's self-centered to a large extent, right? I think the church, the body, perceives what those gifts are in one another. This is not necessarily self-focused or self-identification. That's an opinion. All right, verse 8. And this gets tougher as we go forward here. Thank you, Roger.

Therefore, he says, when he ascended on high, he led captivity captive and gave gifts to men. That sounds like kind of an oxymoron or a disconnect. He led captivity captive and gave gifts to men. That's kind of like You know, death and life, I mean, maybe not. So we'll see what leaving captivity captive means. All right, so making someone captive and then giving gifts unto men seems like it's contradictory, but it's not.

And let's go there. First, it's important to note that all verbs are in the active tense. Therefore, the scripture says, and we'll come to that in a second, When he ascended on high, he ascended active, he led captivity captive, and he gave gifts to men. So this is the Lord Jesus Christ doing all this stuff. Active, tense. He. The Lord Jesus Christ.

What's it there for? Well, what's it there for? Tom? I'm kind of thinking that it's a... Check the previous sentence or two and it explains why. Go back and look. Yeah, I think therefore, wherefore always relates to what immediately precedes it. So that's pretty obvious. That answer is what you've said. And he's not the original test. It's thus scripture says.

So therefore, scripture says, or therefore says, by the way, when he ascended on high, he had led captivity captive. It's a small point, but it's there. Let's turn now to the Psalms, and we're going to kind of figure this one out here. Psalm 68, 18 is directly, or not directly, but similarly quoted here, and it says, you have ascended on high, and you've led captivity captive.

You've received gifts among men, even from the rebellious, that the Lord God might dwell there. Where's there? Talking about heavenly places here? Who wrote the Psalms? David. What's the view of David in terms of on high? Not Sinai, is it not? The answer is all about the earth and Mount Sinai was looked at as really the goal of being on high, it is high, but nevertheless it is also related to the spiritual high. How is everybody doing with their interpretation of this verse? This is one of those that the skeptic would throw out and kind of have you try to understand this. I can see this on Jeopardy or something. Yeah, Tom. I guess this is just a rough and ready attempt.

The ultimate goal of the Lord Jesus is to bring the world, the flesh, and the devil into total control so that the believer can go forward and grow. Not in captivity captive, but it seemed to focus on feeling because he was victorious in his ultimate sacrifice, emotionally dead, to prove that God the Father was satisfied.

And here we go. So you identify the captivity as we being the captives? No, the world, the flesh and the devil. Okay, we'll come back to that in a second. Roger. If you think about it, every person outside of Christ is captive, is under the power of the evil one. And we were once there also. Is that where he's heading here?

That's one of the questions we have to answer. Right. We're going to answer it to the best of the Spirit's ability. I'm going to blame the Holy Spirit if this is not correct. We can like that. Glad she's in the class. Let me ask a question. Since David wrote this, I want you to know about Christ, right? Why don't you just pause a second and let's go forward. We're going to unread this and see how you like the interpretation. Constable, some have alleged that Paul aired a citation from Psalm 6818 on two accounts. OK, so let's look at this. I'm not buying that. I'm not buying that. No, but I mean... The critics, the biblical critics, and we deal with this all the time. There are things in the Bible that seem a little bit internally inconsistent. And you know, McGee brings that up a lot when I listen. He'll bring this up and try to reconcile it.

And these are small things. It doesn't relate to who Jesus Christ is and his crucifixion and resurrection. It relates to these kind of small things. Remember, the Holy Spirit wrote the word, but the word was transcribed by men. And there can be small issues here and there that may seem not to be simply answered. But that's what the critic wants to do. He or she wants to find anything in the Bible that seems to be wrong or different. So let's look at these.

That's a better term. Okay, the first is that Paul altered the verb of the psalm from receive to gave, thus reversing its meaning. so in verse 8 he ascended on high and he led captivity captive and gave gifts to men whereas in the psalm passage you have ascended on high you have led captivity captive you have received gifts among men so giving gifts is from Christ and receiving gifts is from men giving gifts to whomever so that's one potential contradiction And the second, he gave an interpretation of the Old Testament passage that is unwarranted. Well, let's go back and look at it again. So, in other words, the fact that you gave gifts to men is an unwarranted interpretation about what the Lord relates to us versus what happened actually in Israel or what David was referring to. So let's look at this.

Who is you in Psalm 68, 18? who's you in Psalm 68 18. I'm going to turn to someone much wiser than me and that's Macaulay. Macaulay says the primary application of this passage refers to David's capture of the Jebusite Acropolis and his ascent with the Ark of Mount Zion. So we can read Psalm 24 and that documents that historical event.

So that's his interpretation. This relates to Mount Zion. I said Mount Zion before I met Mount Zion. Mount Zion is really the epitome of the Jewish nation and the nation of Israel in terms of where the heavenlies in their perspective were. Now when was this ascension, meaning Christ's ascension, is this ascension from the tomb or is this after his 40 day resurrection mission?

Whatever, he led captivity captive, was that the time of the resurrection or was that time after his earthly mission wherein the church would be founded shortly thereafter? I think it's more resurrection related. Because the cross is what Tom mentioned earlier, the cross is where the captivity were made captive. And captive is not bounding except being made slave servants of the Lord, which is not binding. And the Psalm 68 passage. Let's look at verses 16 and 17 that precede the passage that is quoted here.

Why do you fume with envy? your mountains of many peaks. This is the mountain which God desires to dwell in. Yes, the Lord will dwell in it forever. Of course, the earthly Israel will have Mount Zion as its focus. The end times really relate to Mount Zion. It's that sanctuary, if you will, of God's truth. The cherries of God are 20,000, even thousands of thousands.

The Lord is among them, as in Sinai, that's how I interpret it, in the holy place. Anyway, Ann, how does that relate to this, do you think? We're in the church age, so this is maybe a partial fulfillment of prophecy, but not necessarily the totality. Right, well this relates to the millennial kingdom, right?

But anyway, I mean, David's view of the mountains and Mount Zion was in fact the epitome of where God would choose to dwell as he oversees the nation of Israel. So just like that, Christ, in fact, his position, like ultimately, you know, and David is the father of Israel, right? So I think this is kind of, it's kind of, you know, not perfect, but I think that we're trying to make the best of this kind of ascension time and what it really indicates in terms of Israel's future and potentially prophecy of the Lord Jesus Christ and who Christ is and what he's accomplished. Yes, Tom. David is the psalmist of Israel. I could agree with that, but I'm not sure David would be the father. Well, the king David, right? He was a king at the time, so that positioned him historically in that time frame.

But not forever. Alright, let's continue. Who were or are the captives? Well, I'm going to suggest that it's all of those who were in Satan's control who were or are still now being made captive to the risen Christ. So in other words, I think Roger said this earlier, these are people who are basically born in sin and unsaved. We're all captives of Christ now, but we were ultimately captivity as a noun. encompassed in this large mass of human existence that have fallen far short of God's grace by sin. So that we were captivity in captivity and now we've been made captives of his army if you will.

Put that in a kind of a metaphors kind of sense. Whatever, I think the idea here is it's a symbol of triumph. If we were born in sin and needed to be saved, ultimately being made captive by the Lord Jesus Christ is triumphant. Keep in mind this follows the verse as he gives each and everyone his grace in a specific manner. So he is reviewing how we got to where this is all happening and this is related to our past history and now our current position.

Colossians 2.15, having disarmed principalities and powers, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it. Again, captivity, principles, powers of this world, all the things that fit this audience that we call those in captivity. So let's summarize, I think that Mount Zion represents the being on high and ascended, David's ascending to Mount Zion, that's where God sees the nation of Israel prophetically. The fact that Christ is risen to heavenly places is a resemblance of that kind of Old Testament Israelic prophecy. And the captivity being made captive was just like the prophecy for the nation of Israel being ultimately made a kingdom with the law of the Lord written in their hearts. I'm not going to go there. And now for us today being saved and being in the heavenly position. So that's the best I can do with this. Other thoughts before we go on to 9 and 10? So I'm trying to figure out why Paul would use this analogy here.

He's talking to believers, right? He is, right. So, the majority of believers in Ephesus were Jews? No, this is Gentiles mostly. But that's what I'm thinking. My confusion is, why would he use this in Ephesus? Because I can get it if he's in Hebrews or someone's in Hebrews and talking to Jews primarily because they would recognize that passage from the Psalms. But I'm trying to figure out why Paul would use this in Ephesus.

Well keep in mind verses 4 through 6 is oneness. So the Ephesus that Roger read and we've read at the beginning is one. one body, one spirit, we are called one hope of your calling, one Lord, one faith. So the oneness is really, I think Paul being steeped in Judaism in terms of his role as a Pharisee ultimately now reaching the Gentile and having a ministry to the Gentile. And I think he is using this just in evidence of the fact that that oneness relates to all were in captivity and made captive. I mean, it's the best I can do.

I mean, it seems like it's kind of out of place why he brings up Israel here. But I mean, like I said, the people in Ephesus would have no knowledge of that. coming from the Old Testament or the Torah. Well, there could have been some Jews there. I mean, I don't know exactly what the composition of the audience was to whom Paul was preaching.

I'm just curious. Well, he's going to go ahead and explain. Bob's going to get to 9 and 10. Yeah. There's parentheses. He's going to explain this, which actually introduces another set of problems. Sure. But anyway, he attempts to explain 9 and 10, what he meant, and 8, it seems to me. Oops. Bear with me a second. My shoe's untied. All right. All right. Let's go to 910. More challenges. I think you're going to do gifts. Well, well, we're giving me in terms. Oh, OK. Well, I was just going to point out one thing. Yeah. We often in our our zeal to explain captive to the captive.

With the and he gave gifts to men, that's an important point too. Because that's going to follow on when we get to 11, 12 and so on. He's going to talk about the importance of the gifts he has given to men. He gave the early church, he gave apostles.

So that and gifts kind of gets lost sometimes in the idea. We're trying to explain what's happened to this captivity captive. the end gifts to men kind of gets lost sometimes. I find myself removing it. That's why I mentioned 4.11 and 4.12 before, but I should have maybe made another comment on the gifts to men.

But 4.11 and 4.12 clearly give us evidence that that relates to the specific nature of God's grace to each one of us in the body. Explained in more detail in Romans 12 and 1 Corinthians 14, 12. Alright, let's go ahead. Now, notice the parenthesis here, okay?

Now this, he ascended, what does it mean that he also descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is also the one who ascended far above all the heavens that he might fill all things. How are we doing with this one here? Roger do you want to teach at this point in time? I'm actually waiting for your interpretation. Then you can only be disappointed right? No I won't be I'm sure.

Reese the contents of these verses are parenthetical showing that the ascension of Christ presupposes something. That's kind of what the parenthesis means and I'm not sure Then I agree with Luis, I don't know why I should disagree or agree, but whatever, it's in parenthesis.

The verbs here again are active. This is Christ directing his own movement. He ascended, he also descended, he descended, and ultimately that he might fill all things. He's actively, he's in charge here. This is all the Lord Jesus Christ mandating or dictating or following through on his commitment to this series of events.

So anyway, let's look at 1 Peter 3.18-20, and we're not going to dwell here, but I'm going to use this as an example of another problematic scripture that people get hung up on, and I'm not sure that I'm totally resolving these two together, but let's just keep this in mind. For Christ also suffered once for sins. That's an easy one, isn't it? The just for the unjust, that's easy.

They unite, bring us to God. Wonderful. Being put to death in the flesh, but made alive by the Spirit. So true. by whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient, when once the divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is eight souls, were saved through water." Wow.

Now, I think I have a little bit better understanding of this, having looked at the lesson for this week. And I think I'm going to hopefully help you understand this a little bit better. I may be wrong, but I'm feeling that the Lord has led me to some truth here. Is this ascension to the lower parts of the earth unto some purgatory or limbus patron?

I mean, that's what the Catholics would view here, is that there's some place that you go after death that you kind of are hanging out with people who are ultimately going to get some secondary judgment of some sort. Absolutely not. That's not what this is. and there's just no other scriptural evidence that in any way after, you know, buried with him in baptism of death and risen with him in newness of life to be absent from the body to be present with the Lord, right? I mean, you know, the church doesn't teach any intermediary position that exists for the believer who has now lost human existence or human life. Three interpretations are offered here. Let's look at these. The first is that this is Hades, Sheol, home for the dead. The second is that this is Christ's grave itself.

He descended. His grave was a tomb But also, I mean think about this, that ultimately of the earth, this genitive, genitive is kind of a mixed parsimple of some sort, defining lower regions and this could relate to his incarnation, his condescension and his humiliation. So in other words, Christ could have gone to hell and then done whatever he's going to do down there. I don't like that particularly. Christ's grave could be he descended into the earth but he wasn't descended into the earth.

He in fact was in a tomb which was above the same level of the earth as far as we know. We've seen the tomb site and the claim is it was a tomb. The rock was rolled away. They didn't pick up the rock although I guess the Lord could have picked up the rock.

But the third, he descended and think about this incarnation. Think of the privilege he had at the right hand of God and now he's descended into earthly places. and this is his condescension, he's leaving the throne, he's humiliated as a human existence and that's where the captivity lived in this earthly existence. Romans 10, I've got all kinds of verses for you. But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, do not say in your heart who will ascend into heaven.

Deuteronomy 30. that is to bring Christ down from above, or who will descend into the abyss, Deuteronomy 30.13, that is to bring Christ up from the dead. So, I mean, the parenthesis, in the second parenthesis is really Paul's writing to the Romans. So he's saying, basically, that this ascension and descension really relates to the earthly existence. Let's continue.

Philippians 2.8.9, being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. Therefore God also has highly exalted him and given him the name which is above every name. So he ultimately humbled himself and came into this sphere, if you will, of condescension and humiliation as an earthly human. Matthew 1240, for as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. So you could say that that relates to the grave itself. I mean although the grave again is not underground, I think either two or three could relate to this, but not the first. We have no evidence that he went to hell after he was crucified.

Psalm 139.15, my frame was not hidden from you, When I was made in secret and skillfully wrought in the lower parts of the earth.

So what's David saying here? Lower parts of the earth? He wasn't in hell. I mean if you were, earth is kind of hellish at times isn't it, this earthly existence. But he's talking about him being formed in this earthly existence. And then finally, Psalm 63, 9, but those who seek my life to destroy it shall go into the lower parts of the earth. Lower parts of the earth?

Well, that could be interpreted maybe as the first Hades. David is acting in a very human way here, those who want to destroy it, ultimately you go into, I didn't look at the verb tense, but they are in the lower parts of the earth and are going to remain here. It could be the grave, but I think ultimately it does relate to his dissension, if you will, into the earthly sphere and his existence there. Other thoughts? Let's turn to that psalm and see if we can get some clarity out of that.

Psalm 63.9. Let's look at that. I didn't spend a lot of time there, so maybe we can get a little bit more insight as we look at the passage.

This is the psalm of David when he was in the wilderness of Judah. O God, thou art my God, early will I seek thee. My soul thirsts for thee, my flesh longs for thee in a dry and thirsty land where no water is. To see Thy power and my glory as I have seen those in the sanctuary, because Thy loving kindness is better than life, my lips shall praise Thee. Thus will I bless Thee while I live. I will lift up my hands in Thy name. My soul shall be satisfied as with marrow, and fatness in my mouth shall praise Thee with joyful lips. When I remember Thee upon my bed and meditate on Thee in the night watches, Because thou hast been my help, therefore in the shadow of thy wings will I rejoice. My soul follows close behind thee, thy right hand upholds me, but those who seek my soul to destroy it shall go into the lower parts of the earth.

They shall fall by the sword, that they shall be a portion for foxes, but the king shall rejoice in God. Everyone that swears by him shall glory, but the mouth of those who speak lies shall be stopped. Not sure that helps too much, but it talks about their earthly destruction by sword.

But where are the unbelievers after death, positionally and conditionally, where are they after death, unbelievers? The Great White Throne Judgment is going to be the last thing that God carries out, right? before the new heavens and the new earth. We have a picture of Luke about the rich man and Lazarus. So Lazarus is in this kind of holding place if you will.

So is that where all unbelievers are at? Because isn't Hades empty until Judgment Day? There's nobody there yet. Well, hell is empty right now. Yeah, that's right. So, anyway, I think that ultimately this dissension is not to hell for Christ. We don't have any solid support for that.

It could be his earthly grave, but also his descension could be in fact related to his incarnation and his earthly existence. So, let's go ahead and see what else we learn from this verse. What things did Christ fill? Let's go back to look at the verse again. He who descended is also the one who ascended far above all the heavens that he might fill all things.

First, Did he have to descend first? He had to die first. So if the descension is what we claim it to be in terms of his descension or his incarnation into the human existence, then he had to die. And interesting, notice the active tense, he was willing and did descend.

In other words, he and God, the Father and the Spirit, eternally worked out this this relationship or covenant, if you will, that he would pay for the price of all men's sin for all time. So he said, okay, I'm willing, I'm going to descend and become a man. This contrast is so very important, earth versus heavenly places. We've got this important contrast.

Colossians 2.9 and 10, for in him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. and you are complete in him who is the head of all principality and power. That's us. But it relates to his position. In him dwells all the fullness. So what he's going to fill is what he's about, his fullness.

Hebrews 4.14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the son of God, let us hold fast our confession. So this kind of Two places kind of existence. Was in heaven, came to earth, now back in heaven. And that's where we have all the ability to communicate and bond and get to know him. So earth versus heavenly places, two different places.

So what he's filling is really what he's all about to begin with, his truth. So why is this might fill rather than fill? Might fill is a subjunctive. So the question is, it's filling to the fullness, and I'm going to ask you all, was his mission in some way unfinished? So that he might fill.

One of those closing verses in Revelation, Jesus said himself, it is done. Don't make it. It fakes what you had to say. But it does give you some sort of idea that something isn't happening yet, but it will happen. What was done? Fulfillment of scripture and totality. Saying though that he might fill and he's talking to the church here. Why is that equivocal? Or is it equivocal? Might subjunctive. It might happen, it might not. Why?

It seems the way it's structured. He ascended far above the heavens so that happened. that he might, it's like him having ascended above the heavens facilitates that he might fill all things. That he will fill all things. Yeah. Yeah, facilitate, I like that. Facilitate that he will fill all things. I think it might. Might could be facilitate. He's in the proper place to do that.

Yeah. I kind of wonder if it didn't link back to verse 6. Okay. Because it describes God the Father You know, three times and all were of all was over all through all in all. So this kind of says, well, the sun, it's kind of, you know, he's he's got also. It connects that thought about filling all in all. But it's he might fill all, right?

That's kind of what Steve is saying. The word might can be used in a way to cause doubt, but I don't think that's what's happening here. I'm going to interpret this a little differently. We can discuss this a little bit further. No, I think in context, Paul is describing his work for the body. In context, that's what we're doing. It's completed, so we've all said that, but what about the unsaved? I mean, his work paid for the sins of all men, all women, for all time. But yet, this act that he's done, might fill, really only relates to the body of Christ.

I mean, those who don't believe don't have this ability for him to fill them with all truth and wisdom. but I think this might be inappropriately interpreted as subjunctive that he's incapable in some way. No, I would never judge that. That would not be my interpretation. But I'm just wondering if he might Phil rather than Phil, and maybe two, let me think about something that didn't come up yesterday when I was preparing this. Is this dependent on our faith? He's fully capable, we have the mind of Christ, and we live under this blanket of grace, but remember we have to respond to that by faith. We did respond by faith.

To get saved. The ongoing growth in grace is an act of faith, is it not? As much as it is to get saved. But it doesn't mean that we're not going to be filled. I think every believer, we're part of the church. That's not going to be pulled out from under us. No matter what we believe ten years later, once you're saved, you're saved. But what's the process of filling? You won't experience the full fellowship if you walk away from the Lord, but the Lord doesn't walk away from us.

That's for sure. There is a process at work, we with unveiled faiths, beholdenness and fear are transformed from glory unto glory. The process does exist. No, I don't disagree with that. But Christ is fully capable, but the fact that he might fail is dependent on our faith, is it not? No, I agree with Steve. I don't think it's a... Well, you two can leave the room. I don't think there's any... I might fill or I might not. I don't doubt his capability of filling the whole body.

Why do the believers fall short? What lacks our growth in his ability to fill us with all truth? I think the question is, our faith is dependent on him having fulfilled The question you're asking is, does this require my faith? I don't think my faith is the issue here. He did his work, and I'm going to respond to that work by faith. But he's going to do it whether we believe it or not.

Right. once we believe we are already part of the body, we may not experience the full benefit. I mean I just raised this as another point here at the end. I didn't consider that. I mean there is no question of his entire capability of feeling. But Mike Phil needs some thought about interpretation. So Steve, state your thoughts again.

It's kind of above the heavens. What are you referring to? What you said about this verse, this closing phrase. I was referring to the function of the word might. Oh, might, yeah. And it's not, in my understanding of this, it's not that he might or he might not. But it's facilitating him having ascended. That's what facilitates his ability to fill all things. Not that he might or might not. It's that. That he will. Yeah. It allows him, because he ascended, it allows him to, I like the word allows as opposed to might. It allows him to fill. Because he did a sin. Or it facilitated.

You can see that in the Steve Dyer version. I looked for that in the commentaries, but I must have tripped across it. Anyway, so let's see what we learned today. I think the grace here is particularly headed towards the Ephesian church and the body as a whole in terms of specific gifts. We'll get more into that next week. Are you teaching next week Roger? No, actually Randy is. Randy will get into that next week.

This dissension and ascension I think relates to the Old Testament in kind of complicated ways, but it relates to Israel, Mount Zion, and ultimately that's the holiest of holies. That's their heavenly place, if you will. Just time to interpret that. So the song passage really writes the Mount Zion, the nation of Israel and its future. And the ascension and descension of Christ is his resurrection and his ascension and I think ultimately all this took place when he came up from the grave not after his 40 day mission. the whole issue of did he go to hell, I think we don't think he did and whether it's an earthly grave or in fact it really represents a much broader spiritual interpretation of his incarnation coming down to where captivity existed and him making all captivity captive in those that believe.

I think that is a better interpretation, we'll leave it at that. This issue might fail, I'm not going to make any further comments about that. And we'll let each one be led by the Spirit if you have the gift to receive that grace. Is that okay? Everybody okay with that kind of a global summary? Certainly, the Lord Jesus Christ is capable of doing all things at all times in his own perfect way. Active text, right?

Alright, let's pray. Tom, close this compartment, please. Thank you, Heavenly Father, for your word working within us to show us your will, especially in this sometimes difficult to look through portion of scripture, but your Holy Spirit will make things clearer later on, even if we have a crowded comprehension right now. You be in the glory, all come clear, you're in perfect time. Thank you for what you have in this class.