Biblical Counseling

Okay, we've got the second week on church discipline. The prior week we have over here if you want to pick that up and missed it last week. If you need anything from past weeks and are keeping track of that, you can see Nancy or Sue for paper copies. I think Sue Ellen can help as well. How do we say it? Nasi Susuelen? Something like that. Anyway, you can see them for paper copies.

I'm going to be catching up with getting the whole file with all this on the network, you know, so you can get it off the website and download it there as well. I also want to put an index in case somebody is collecting that because I think it's a substantial amount of really useful biblical resources here. And then we have 129 pages in this unit, plus the pages in Biblical Anthropology, which, by the way, are already being used in some other places around the country. And in addition to that, all the appendix items. We've got 13 appendix items just for this, and then about that same number for the Biblical Anthropology. So lots of resources here.

Church discipline, we brought up last week, the key verse, the starting point verse was Galatians 6.1, which has to do with, you who are spiritual, restore a brother who has fallen along the path alongside, off but not walking, right?

Restore them to that walk. And also we could use the word march because also Paul had used the word of actually soldiers marching in line and in unison with one another. And you who are spiritual, restore. Remember that's a word that was used for mending nets and for setting a bone so that it could heal. Restore. with gentleness, looking to yourself. So we start with that verse. And again, as we look at this second part here, restoring is the key. We're not aiming to shoot the wounded.

Tom? This will be brief, but my first introductory sentence is, spiritually dense verse. Yes. I thought to myself, that's an interesting word, why not use packed? I could use other words, but the idea is there is a lot of spiritual information in that one passage. Not dense as in dense in the head. That's not mentally dense, it's spiritually dense. Okay.

So as we look at this, we want to look at what ends up being a progression in dealing with believers. And why do we say a progression? You can look at this chart on the next page, which happens to be page 129, the last page in this biblical counseling section. And there is a sequence to go through in correcting a brother or sister with the idea of restoring.

Why would there be a sequence? Why wouldn't we just say, look, you do this, you're done? Why would there be a sequence? You've got to give them three strikes. Yeah, it's ultimately more than three is really what you're looking at, isn't it? Yeah, three strikes is a good way to put it, or four or five. Why not just, hey, you do this, if that's not it, you're done. Why not just, hey, here's your one step, and if that's not it, you're out of here.

We're under grace. Ah! We're under grace. Okay, there's one thing. Yeah. We have a grace-based ministry. Okay? This is not the shooting range. Okay? This is not the firing squad. Christian firing squad? I don't think so. This is a grace-based ministry. As a matter of fact, Romans 5, before Paul tells the believers to do anything, says grace is the reigning principle. Okay? The reigning principle. Alright? Good. That's a key point.

Why else? And certainly, by asking why else, I don't mean to minimize grace, because that's absolutely essential. It's the air we breathe as Christians. Why else? Yeah? To deal with it in the spirit of gentleness is not a one-off thing. Yes, yes. Gentleness as a characteristic, which is obviously related to grace, gentleness is not a BANG! Here's your correction list. That's it. Yeah, Donna? It's also a view towards approval rather than Ah, you are seeking approval. You are seeking as believers to restore.

You don't restore if the main effect is just a shotgun blast if you don't make it. So that's why a sequence here. That would explain this sequence. If we look at this Church Discipline chart on page 129, Here are some things that would be the subject of church discipline, and you notice there are scripture verses after each, at least one passage for each. And when you look down the list, those are the four bulleted items there, open sexual immorality, unresolved personal conflicts, divisive behavior or teachings within the body of Christ, and false teaching. Let's ask a few questions, important ones. Is this list exhaustive as to why you might have to deal with some believer to seek to restore them? either the one that's being looked at or the people who are seeking to restore.

Sometimes you just have to wait a while to find out what the whole story is. So you're saying you might have to wait a while. That would be reason for taking time. But is this list all the list? Or could there be other items for which you would need to look at and say, hey, this believer needs to be restored aside from these bulleted items? I see some heads nodding yes. What are some of those? What are some other things for which you might need to correct a believer?

Family intervention. Yeah, it might be a family issue. Alright, good. What else? Anything that causes your brother to stop? Here's another thing. These are things that are pretty well out there and kind of obvious. So we look at this, there may be other things and one of those may be a matter of something that really is not the Bible says this or this, but maybe a matter of conscience, maybe a matter of Christian liberty. Something that the Bible doesn't explicitly say and yet somebody may be going and trying to force something on somebody else about this is the way you got to do it. The first church that, well the church I grew up in, it's my first memories. The organist for that church, real nice lady in a lot of ways and played the organ well.

There was a problem however and that's that she absolutely just to the death, refused to play anything in three or four times because you could dance to it. So that was a problem. That was a problem. And so what happened here was this enforcement of something that scripture doesn't really say, thou shalt not play anything in three or four times.

So there were things like that. And who knows, we may be singing one or two this morning. What's that? Okay. You don't play anything in 916 time either, right? Yeah, okay. It is possible for believers to go around trying to enforce something on other people that really is just a matter of conscience. Right?

And that can be a problem. And the truth is there are other things, this list is just a starting point of the kinds of things that you might have to deal with. And these are things about which we have explicit mention in Scripture. Some are more matters of principle that may have to be dealt with. Okay, we talked a couple weeks ago about taproot sins, that is, deep-seated sins of different kinds. So this list is not exhaustive, although dealing with it may seem exhausting. Okay? Alright. If you break it down, there are nearly a half dozen steps in this chart that we have here on the next page here.

There are three columns, and the central column, Restoring a Brotherhood or Fellowship with the Lord and with Other Believers, is the goal of both God's working in believers' life, because the body of Christ has not done so. That's the left column. This is God disciplining where the body of Christ has not stepped in. And here's where that shows up, 1 Corinthians 11, 31-32, this has to do with the Lord's table and their love feast when they would gather together.

And zeroing in on the point that we have here, but if we judged ourselves rightly, he's saying we ought to, we would not be judged by God, is what he's saying. But when we are judged by God, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world. Believers are, in fact, individually to judge, and this is not a judgment of condemnation, but to judge themselves, our own selves individually, There is a place for stepping in, and that's what this church discipline chart is pointing to. But if either of those don't take place, the Lord steps in and will discipline us. Is that the same as punishing us?

No. Okay. All right. You say no. Why do you say no? Why does Dora say no? Punishment is different from discipline. And she's right. Why is she right? What's the difference here? Why is punishment different from discipline? We hope to learn from one of them. Which one?

The discipline is intended to teach us and correct us and Just like Galatians 6.1, it's the Lord stepping in to put us on the right path. That's the intent. Punishment says, you deserve this. Whack, you got it. Punishment is law. Discipline is grace. There we go. Punishment is law says, this is what you did. Here's the penalty. You paid the penalty. Done deal.

Discipline instead looks to correct and restore and just like Galatians 6.1, to put the believer on the right path. Yeah, Wayne? Punishment has already been taken care of on the cross. Ah, there we go. The punishment, the penalty has already been taken care of. Isn't that wonderful? So the believer is not in a place of being punished, of being given punishment because the Lord has already taken that. Done deal. The discipline is there because the Lord loves us to put us back on the right path.

I think the thing is that our legal system, although we use the term correctional facility, my second son is a prison guard at a correctional facility, and some of these guys are really beyond correcting. As a matter of fact, I think he's changed his post, but the place he had until recently was keeping Nevada's worst of the worst. These are guys that were so bad you don't ever let them out of their cell. You just can't trust them to get out of their cell. That's the Tarson City facility? Yeah. Yeah. Now this is the max.

And they had, matter of fact, you can still see them although they don't use them. They had, you know, put them in solitary confinement. It was a box half sunk into the ground, which in the wintertime with snow on the ground is not real warm. It's a concrete box half sunk in the ground.

So, anyway, that's punishment. Discipline, what we're talking about, is what the Lord does We're not to be condemned along with the world, we're instead to be corrected because He loves us. Correction, this discipline, comes from the Lord's love for us, not punishment, as Wayne so aptly pointed out. The Lord's already taken that.

There is an appendix here, we won't have time to go through it, but it deals with Judging. Christians can oftentimes get confused on that because we use the word judging in different ways. Here we'll have words from Christ that says don't judge, right? Don't judge. And then you'll have in the Gospel of John where Christ uses the word judge as an imperative. You must judge.

Which one's right, you know? So the truth is the word judge, although it's the same word, is being used in different ways in different contexts. And that appendix is intended to help sort that out, especially the bullets on the last page. We won't go into the topic of judging then, but you can certainly look at that write-up on your own time. Let's move ahead here.

The urging of Scripture is that we do judge biblically within the body of Christ so that the Lord does not have to do the disciplining, the judging, of the believer. The Lord's judgment of us who believe is not for condemnation, but it's for evaluation here for do we need to be disciplined and carrying that out and when we go to see the Lord face-to-face it's a judgment of evaluation for reward. Church discipline is God's primary intent for known matters of sin in a believer's life rather than disciplined by God. Notice in that first Corinthians 11 31 and 32 passage Church discipline, you believers judging one another biblically, not pharisaically, judging one another biblically, that's God's first and primary intent.

If that doesn't happen, and there are reasons why it might not happen, can you think of some reasons? Let's look at that. Can you think of some reasons why church discipline, what we see laid out here, would not happen for a particular believer. What would be some reasons for the church dealing with these issues not happening with a believer? Can you think of something? A simple offense. It may be just something that the law is going to deal with it. Why else? Why else might church discipline not happen with a particular believer?

Lack of love within the church. Lack of love within the church. The church doesn't want to deal with it. The church doesn't know how to deal with it. Yeah, that may be the case as well. The church just, they don't know how to deal with it. Some cases they don't know that they're supposed to. So a lack of love, which may come from different sources, which might include just plain lack of teaching. Lack of understanding.

Oh, you mean we're supposed to deal with this? That's why Paul wrote to the believers and he says, look, you've got a guy, he's sleeping with a stepmother. You're supposed to deal with it. So deal with it. Oh, and by the way, you guys are suing each other. Don't deal with that. Well, rather you need to so that you don't go to court. Don't be stepping into court against another believer. So he's telling the church, you guys need to deal with things biblically. And you're right. It's a lack of love for believers not to express these things biblically.

Good. Is there another reason? Lack of awareness? Lack of awareness, yeah. We don't know what's going on. It may be this person is doing something fairly privately. What sometimes happens is that private activity goes on for some time and then it pops up public. I was in a church once where we had a guy who was leading music every Sunday. All of a sudden he shows up on the news, you know? So yeah, lack of awareness. We didn't deal with it because we didn't know. Oh boy. Okay. And why else?

Ever know a believer that just kind of wanders away from the flock and he's just not involved with anybody and he's no longer hanging around? And one of the reasons is because he's involved with this problem that's got him all wrapped up and tangled up in sin. And so he's just not in contact with other believers. He's kind of fallen out of fellowship, out of contact with the body. So the body really has no context to remain in contact with them.

Okay? So that could happen. Yeah. So there can be different reasons, some of which may be something where the church needs to step in and do what they're supposed to. Some cases it may be just kind of out of their control if the believer stepped away or, you know, maybe something where the legal system has entirely taken them up. Okay. There's also another complication to this chart. You don't want complication. But I'm sorry, a little bit's there. If you let it go, he may not be saved.

It's one of those. And the idea is, it says on the top there, your brother is restored to fellowship with the Lord. Well, in fact, for that case, it's a special case, he's actually going to be introduced to relationship and fellowship with the Lord. So it's kind of a special instance there. Okay. Yeah, here's somebody who's been among you.

And you see him fall into sin, and lo and behold, with the conversation, you find out he's not saved. Well, it's no wonder, okay? This problem has cropped up. He isn't really saved. I had a friend years and years ago. This is at the same church I grew up in, you know, where the organist wouldn't play three, four time music. There was a fellow there that his wife had started coming to church, and then after four years, All of a sudden he was sitting in the pew and, wow, you know, it was one of those I could have had a V8 moment. I'm not saved. The guy just realized after four years of sitting in there in the pews he's not saved.

Whoa! Okay? And so that can happen. You can have somebody and they kind of, they learn the lingo and they, you know, don't behave too badly. And they're not saved. It's only four years? I've heard someone who's been going to church for 20 years. Oh yeah. I had a pamphlet, I've lost track of it, but it says, I was a pastor for 50 years and then I was saved. How about that? Yeah, pastor for 50 years and then he was saved. Wow. That's amazing, huh? Okay, each step in the process is intended to restore a believer, even though it's progressive. Let's take a look at the chart. It's on page 129 here.

It says you have first-hand knowledge of sin in the body of Christ. And this is, Chad's pointing out, just awareness. Just an awareness of the issue. And then if we deal with it biblically, this is not the Lord's discipline, but the body carrying out church discipline, which is the primary intent. That's the first priority in scripture.

First, you come along him privately. Why don't you just jump out to, okay, you found out this person sinned, and then Verne gets up there and announces it next Sunday morning with slides and pictures of the offense. Why don't we do that? We'll jump to that. And then I'll be in big trouble. Why don't we do that? The key word you used was jump. More live gossip. Yeah, this is a leap. What happens is here is the principle that you see carried out.

You have the minimum number of people involved that are necessary to deal with the problem. the way you deal with it. The minimum number of people involved that is necessary to deal with the problem. So that's one reason why you don't do the jump. That's later down in the sequence, isn't it?

Where you do bring it in front of the church body. But the principle that you see going through this process, and it has to do with grace, is the minimum number of people involved to bring the brother or sister to a place of being restored. Two or three. Pardon? It says two or three. Well, then that's the next step. You come alongside him privately. A single person is what it initially starts off at. And then the next one, reprove him or two or three witnesses. Why the two or three witnesses is the next step there, if he continues. Why two or three witnesses? Well, because it's your word against mine otherwise.

OK. All right. Yeah, the two or three witnesses are there to verify. Also as a kind of a measure, you know, how is this being carried out? When you get out the machete, it's probably going too far, right? When you get out the machete on your tongue, it's probably going too far. But it is a matter of having someone there to verify things and to kind of measure things. Is this, you know, the truth? Is this being expressed graciously?

Are these people who have observed the sin or the witnesses? I think that, yeah, Bonnie asks a good question. These witnesses, are they people who have observed the sin or are they witnesses to the confrontation? The answer I'll say is both. What I mean by that is this. You may have a situation where other people are simply not aware of the sin. And what they're witnessing is the confrontation.

But it may also be, especially if there is contention about what the facts are, it may also be that these people are witnesses of the particular sin and are aware of the facts. And so you may have both things taking place at once. If there is a dispute as to the facts, it will be especially important to have those who are witnesses of the facts. You can run into a difficult situation if you say this person's got a problem and he's disputing it and the one who made the initial confrontation is the only one who's aware of the facts. You may or may not have the ability to bring up substantiating evidence And you may or may not have, you know, witnesses to that. So at a minimum, it's bringing other people along for the confrontation. But it may require these two other people to also be witnesses of the facts that brought it to that point. Okay, now. We're proven with two or three witnesses.

That is, by the way, initially taken out of the Law of Moses, but it is a principle carried over into the New Testament even by Paul himself. Why is it gracious, even though we look at it and say, wait a minute, that's what the Law says. Why is it gracious? times, people already had rocks in their pockets that were going to go up there and supposedly judge the matter. So here, it's kind of like we're unarmed, we're not trying to go after you with a machete like you did.

We just want to find out the truth. Okay, well that's key. Why else is it gracious? See, Tom really just ended with the word. It's the truth. The truth is also the foundation for grace, right? So it's a matter of this is what the truth is. It's also gracious because the intent is what? To throw stones? No. The intent is to restore, right? That's why it's gracious. It's the truth with the intent to restore. You're still intending to restore, okay? The law's intent is let's pick up our stones, okay? The truth here is intended to restore. It's also gracious because of that.

Let's look at what's the next step. Reprove him before the church body. Reprove him before the church body. Wow. As a matter of fact, one of those instances, 2 Timothy 5.20, is reprove an elder before the church body. So when a person becomes an elder, they take on particular exposure, if you will, for sins in which they persist. In which they persist. Alright, are you with me so far? Did I scare anybody away? Okay.

What if the fellow will not come before the church body? What if that person will not come before the church body? What do you do then? You throw up your hands and say, well, I guess we've got to give up. He's not going to come here and do this, so we're done. Is that what happens? No. What do you do? You bring it before them again. Pardon? I didn't say you bring it before them again.

Yeah, let's say you're at that step, but the person who is carrying out this sin, he won't come. He won't show up in front of you. He may leave at that point. Yeah, he may leave, but what do you do as a church body if that guy doesn't show up, guy or gal doesn't show up when you're meeting? You have to still make his is sins known, you still carry it out. And essentially what happens, the reproving and disfellowship happens at the same time.

I will bring up an instance like that, that again happened at this church where I grew up, and I'll tell you who it was. It was Lambert Dolphin was his name. And I'll tell you why, because it was made public then. And the story went like this. I had been to Lambert Dolphin's house a number of times, a single man.

One time while I was there, we were having a meeting of the leaders at the college Christian group where Nancy and I went to college. And Lambert interrupted our meeting three times that evening. And you may think, well, he's terribly rude. But he interrupted the meeting three times.

Each time was to introduce us to another person who had become a believer. That evening. So he had one person come over and then another and then another. And each time he'd introduce, this is now a new believer, I want to introduce you to this new believer. And he wasn't making a lot of banners and headlines for himself. He was just introducing us to this new believer.

He had a tremendous gift of evangelism, among other gifts that the Lord had given him. Well, I was shocked to find out, because actually, different times, both Nancy and I had been over at his place. He frequently had Christian gatherings at his house.

One Sunday morning, at a meeting that he refused to be at, it was announced, with tears I'll add, that Lambert had decided to go into a homosexual lifestyle. We were just shocked and everybody was crying, oh it was just terrible. But what was kept quiet until that moment was they had been right through this exact same sequence that we're talking about here this morning. And so anyway, he wasn't there, but they told briefly about how they'd gone through the sequence privately up to that point.

Can it affect the whole church body if it's not dealt with correctly? Certainly it could, yeah. He could even have been drawing others who might be tempted into that same lifestyle. If you keep it quiet, yeah, that's a problem. So anyway, the announcement was made and it was just real shocking. And then after about two years, Lambert came back and they threw a welcome home party for him coming back.

And he stood up in front of everybody and he says, I'm back here today in fellowship with the Lord and with you all. because of the way this was handled. It was handled biblically. Every single step was biblical. And so I'm restored to fellowship with the Lord and fellowship with all of you. And I'm walking away from the homosexual lifestyle because everything all along the way was handled biblically. And he says, and I knew that each step was one of love. even the one where they announced what I had decided to do to the whole church body. That was love too. So anyway, Lambert Dolphin. You can Google his name if you want. He's got a website. I last saw him, well it's been a little over 20 years ago. But anyway, he is walking with the Lord now. And so that's kind of the answer.

You may end up having to do both the reprove him before the church body and disfellowship him in the same meeting if the person refused to be there, refused to be corrected. Alright, how about, why not, if I confront, let's say we're at the first step, someone is caught in a sin that's evident and obvious and needs to be dealt with, I confront that person privately, why don't I just go on to the next step and bring two or three witnesses if he's restored? Because it might be a taboo sin. Pardon? It might be a taboo sin.

Yeah, but I'm saying he's restored. Let's say he is, this person, I've confronted him and he's restored. Why don't I just say, well, okay, the next thing on the chart here is, you know, we've got to get two or three witnesses and go down the step. What's wrong with that? That violates confidentiality. Okay. Yeah. In other words, we've got the principle that says I have the minimum number of people involved in order to bring this person to be restored, right? And once the person's restored, you're off the sequence, okay?

And you begin violating confidentiality. Unfortunately, while I'm telling you this is what scripture says, and I've tried to give you some good examples, I've also seen some really bad examples. Like, you know, the pastor includes the correction of a sermon. He might not say the name, but he puts the picture on the slides, you know? And I've heard of instances like that, where the pastor's sitting there, talking away, and all of a sudden, to everybody's shock and surprise, bang! And it's the first time he's brought it up. Unfortunately, I've seen that. Not at this church that I was at, but elsewhere.

Yeah, this is not right. You see, it's possible for us to take these out of sequence, or not to say, hey, wait a minute, this has been corrected, and end it. Yeah, isn't that interesting? What happens when you do that is you may cut off the path of restoring. I've already dealt with this. Why are you coming at me with this in front of everybody or with a whole bunch of people? So that's a good one. Let's ask this question.

How does gossip violate the biblical principles laid out in this chart here. How does gossip violate it? It's one of those sins that are listed in the Word of God. First of all, it's one of the sins you may have to confront the gossiper, okay? That's one, okay? Good point. So yeah, you may need to confront the gossiper. But what else? Why else? Why else might you need to deal with this. What's going on with Gossip? Sure, it undermines. Jeremy? Gossip has got a few different problems.

One is that it starts jumping ahead of the schedule. It doesn't ask if you're restored. It jumps ahead by telling other people what the problem is. And so it jumps ahead and gossip is not with the intent to restore. Gossip is not with the intent to restore. So gossip's got multiple problems with it, doesn't it? Gossip may itself need to be corrected. Gossip jumps ahead of the schedule and it doesn't have the motivation to restore.

One of the backdoor ways to gossip is to have a prayer request. I'm going to pray for this guy because he's doing blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah Yeah, right? So it's even possible to holy eyes gossip. Could be. Could be.

That's why we don't have that prayer chain anymore. Actually we do, but most certainly, you know, I want to avoid gossip. Matter of fact, one of the things that we have is we ask the person, do you want this on the prayer chain? There's a filbert built into it. We want to make sure that the prayer chain is not somehow violating this, but is really fulfilling a godly purpose. Nancy is so good at what she does too, and when she introduces the prayer quite often, she underlays who the person was that sent in that, and It's generally their own words. Yeah, frequently their own words that there aren't too many.

What is the value of restoring a believer in fellowship? What's the value in that? Why is that the always goal? The purpose of coming together is fellowship. Why do we fellowship? Let's ask that question. What's the purpose of meeting as a church? Knitting together in love. Good. What else? We were created for fellowship. That is part of our having been initially created in the image of God and ultimately created in Christ Jesus. Ephesians chapter 2. I see.

Developing a lot of the philosophy to get more silverware. My son visited a church and they had a raffle and he got a stereo system. But that's not the purpose of the church. No, not stereo systems. Is that why we use plastic? Yeah. For by electronics are you saved, right? No. No, ultimately it's for building up the body of Christ, okay? This is the Ephesians 4, 11-16, for building up the body of Christ, that we might grow in Him, okay? That we might grow in Him, mature in Him. Okay, the last one on the list there is, turn away from Him. Does that sound like love? Why is that on the list? In fact, there's a couple of passages there. Why turn away from the one as the last step? Is that a good thing?

Because he's already turned away. Yeah, you've gone through all these steps. That's one thing is you don't turn away as a, well, we're just going to jump at this, right? But you've been through all these gracious, loving steps previously and he has refused to respond to those. at each step of the way. Let's take it for instance, for the way things were handled with Lambert Dolphin.

I mean, he could have just said, hey, I'm out of here. And that's it. I'm permanently in this mode. I'm not turning around. In which case, you have to turn away from him. What does it mean to turn away from him? You don't have to have any contact with him.

I guess that would be the question. Is that what it means? Is that what it's talking about? Not quite, but don't welcome him back into the church without a good reason. Ultimately, you're turning away from him as a brother. Turning away from him as a brother or sister in the Lord. That's ultimately what you're looking at.

Only the Lord knows where their heart is, but by every decision that they have made, they're declaring, hey, I'm not a believer. So it is a matter at that point of looking at them and saying, hey, you've got this issue here, and as far as anyone can tell, you've not responded to God's gracious appeal to be restored here. So it wouldn't be so much a matter of, you know, all right, I'm walking down the grocery store aisle, you know, there's this guy, I'm going to turn around and run the other way. Or the guy comes up to me and says hi, and I can just pretend like he's not there.

Is that what it is? No. But what it is, it's not a matter, you go up and just treat him as if he were a brother in fellowship. He isn't, okay? that ultimately there needs to be an appeal, if anything, if the Lord brings you in contact with him, there needs to be an appeal to, hey, you've got this issue in front of you. So would you let him still come into the church? Oh, no, I would say not.

But I would say, because if you look even farther down the list here, where here's this brother who's sleeping with his stepmother, Paul says, boot him out. And notice that what happens if you track that down, in 2nd Corinthians Paul says, the guy's repented, let him back in. Because ultimately it tends to restore, right? It worked. He says, restore him. He's repented, he realizes what he's done wrong, let him back in. But yeah, there is a place of recognizing that this guy is not a believer by any behavior that he shows. And you have to treat him as such. And it's not a matter of pretending like he's still a believer.

Yeah, Tom? Obviously, when you give that example, you have to wonder somewhere along the line, either that one particularly obvious sinner, had to have contact later on when he was at the point of saying, this is a losing situation. I need to get back with the Lord. Then he'd be in contact with either Paul or one of his other people, and the Word would get back to Paul. And he'd be able to say, OK, he's reversed course. He's one of ours. He's one of yours. He's a friendly. Yeah, welcome him back. Welcome them back, right? And that's another thing. Are things in such a way that you could welcome somebody back?

Take up your instance. Here's a guy, he's been really hardened and he's finally come to his senses and realized, boy, let's take the case of Lambert. Suppose Lambert Dolphin comes and he says, I'm ready to come back and nobody will talk to him. So it isn't a matter of freezing them out entirely, but if it looks like, boy, this guy is ready to be restored, in fact, there's, you know, certainly need to make sure it's serious, but on the other hand, to recognize it when it actually does take place. And at least have that door open. If there's a cold, hard, and fast, I will not now or ever have contact with you, you've closed the door to that person being restored, even at that late stage. And so there still needs to be a willingness to have contact there so the person has a pathway back into fellowship, not only with the Lord, but with the church body.

Okay, the bell is buzzing. Hopefully your mind is not buzzing. Somebody else buzzing? Or ringing? Other thoughts, perspectives about this? Of course, this is our last time this year, last time for this elective. Any other thoughts, ponderings about what we've been looking at here, either today or this last year? Yes?

After Richard turns away from this person, Is that when the Lord does the disciplining? The reality is the Lord may do the disciplining at an earlier stage if it's something that the church has either not stepped into or is unaware of or has maybe not had any contact with this person. Some people will wander away to a place of no contact, and then fall into sin, and it's tough for the church to be aware or do much about it at that point in time, if a person has already taken themselves out of fellowship. Is that the answer?

Okay. Other thoughts? Exasperations? Yeah. I was just sitting here thinking, we always quote John 3.16, but we forget John 3.17. where it says, God sent not his son into the world to condemn the world, but the world through him might be saved. So we're kind of forgetting the world was already condemned by God, but his son came to restore.

And so there's the principle already set, that is that restoration. The restoration is exactly what he had in mind. And notice that he took the initiative. It wouldn't even be possible were it not for the Lord's gracious and merciful acts to even bring this about in the first place. As it says several places in scripture, sometimes in the same verse, he loved and he gave. He loved and he gave. He took the initiative so that we might have a place of restoration. Other thoughts? Here's his question. It's a very good one.

Let's say that you're aware of a sin and perhaps you may be the only one. If you feel that you are somehow not qualified to step in to deal with it, do you just keep your mouth shut? Or do you come to somebody that you feel is qualified and let them know and deal with it that way? How many votes for do nothing? Both hands up. This is one where I'm not aware of some passage that deals with the answer to what your point is cleanly.

But let's go by this principle. The principle is the minimum number of people in order to bring the restoration about. By that I would say this, that if at all possible the person who is aware of it initially should seriously consider Could they be able? That that would be the priority.

If, after serious consideration, they say, no, I really should not be the one to do it, then it may in fact call for letting someone else, and by the way, the someone else needs to be someone you're quite sure will be able to do it, so that it doesn't end up being, gee, I've told 12 people and finally found one, you know?

Yeah, pretty soon you got a mess there. So again, what it amounts to is if you're aware of something that you really think needs to be dealt with, but you've got some question about whether you're qualified or there may be one other question, am I qualified or how should I handle it? Is this really something that should be dealt with? Then there may in fact be a need to call somebody else in.

But consider real carefully Is that the best move or is it just a cop-out? Maybe I'm just not brave enough, you know? Because the Lord can provide the adequacy and the courage and all that, but it should be considered very carefully and not handed off without serious thought.

Isn't there a time when you could discuss that with the elders of the church? Yeah, typically. I'll tell you what, even among the elders we'll try to avoid gossip. Right. But the person needs to feel strong enough to be able to go to some group that he has confidence in. Yeah. The answer may often be, I need to approach an elder about it. Especially if it's a church kind of issue. But again, serious consideration. Does the Lord want me to hand this off? Or am I just... It may be that the person who first learns of sin is not at the stage of Christian growth where he can feel safe in confronting the person lest he too be tempted.

Remember the Galatians 6.1 passage, the last part there is examining yourself.

That's the serious consideration. And so certainly, if after examining yourself, you look at it and you say, I shouldn't be doing this because there's some kind of a snag in this for me, then they better opt out. But as a church body, it still needs to be dealt with. So that's where if you opt out, you better seriously consider where this should go next.

We just took this class, shouldn't we all be qualified? Yeah, and I think that's a part of what we're looking at. This biblical counseling is coming alongside. And it is, as with all the equipping that we do, it is so people are equipped. And if you look at the first two Sundays where we studied this biblical counseling, we looked at all the different things, the one and others. Come alongside one another, the word that you could translate counsel. Come alongside one another, exhort one another, admonish one another. All those words are the one and others, and it is God's intent that as believers that we have this fellowship and relationship with one another. And also, by the way, if somebody comes to me, and I have been one who people have come up and had to exhort me and urge that I do this or not do that.

So I've been the recipient. But if that person's coming along the side and, you know, I know that person loves me, then it's okay. It's all right. I can take it then. If they're coming with verbal machetes, that's a little different. Okay? Yeah. Okay, we're running out of time. We've got noses pressed up against the glass.

Not quite, but anyway, let's take a minute to pray and we'll call it a year, okay? Thank You, Lord, as we look at this. You have indeed not only given us Your Word, and thank You, but you have given us your Holy Spirit. You have placed us by your Holy Spirit into the body of Christ. You've placed us in fellowship with one another. And we thank you for the resources by your word, by your Holy Spirit's ministry among us, by your having placed us into the body of Christ. We thank you for this precious ministry, this dear ministry among one another to build up the body of Christ to your glory. In Jesus name, Amen.